US politics - have you no sense of decency, sir?

[Larry of the Lawn]

31 minutes ago, JGP said:

Didn't the Dems try though, Larry? They can't force Pub Sens across the aisle.  

Even the measure to give the parties more time got defeated. Could the Feds/Dems have forced binding arbitration instead? That might've been the way first, iono.

They did it as a separate vote- if Congress is going to intervene in negotiations between capital and labor and they always cater to capital I think it's fair to call them out on that.  Biden could have pushed for it.  Pelosi's comments on it just stressed how important it was to avoid any disruption.  Biden says "I'm pro labor" and then does something pro-corporate.  

Because it's transportation the workers get fucked out of even having a normal negotiating process - the threat of, and consequences of a strike, are greatly diminished when the government steps in to reduce the chance of any work stoppage.  And Dems, specifically leadership, didn't go to bat for the workers.  That's not "pro-labor".

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

35 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Spare me the patronizing bs. 

Asking Biden to publicly push for 7 days paid leave is "wanting to burn it all down?".  How is what I said "unfair" to Biden or congressional Dem leadership?  Asking them to actually do one fucking thing to support workers over shareholders is unfair?  

 

 

They should have 14 days paid leave, and even that would be too little. However, the means to achieve that end are not at present available. Personally I think every worker should have two weeks sick leave and two weeks of vacation, and generous benefits to go along with it. But the world doesn't work that way right now. Hopefully someday it will. 

34 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, four years ago Pelosi didn't secure the requisite votes until December 12th.

And maybe McCarthy will by then, but given the slim margin and the desire for chaos, who knows. Either way, kick up your feet and laugh

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

And maybe McCarthy will by then, but given the slim margin and the desire for chaos, who knows. Either way, kick up your feet and laugh

Sure.  Just saying it's still early yet and not really out of the ordinary -- so far.

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

They should have 14 days paid leave, and even that would be too little. However, the means to achieve that end are not at present available. Personally I think every worker should have two weeks sick leave and two weeks of vacation, and generous benefits to go along with it. But the world doesn't work that way right now. Hopefully someday it will. 

And maybe McCarthy will by then, but given the slim margin and the desire for chaos, who knows. Either way, kick up your feet and laugh

They aren't available because the people making decisions aren't willing to push for it.  Which is what I've been criticizing the entire time.  If you think Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and co are doing everything thing they can to make that happen, I guess your position makes sense.  I think it's quite clear they aren't doing that.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

So...maybe the 'moderate' R House members nominate somebody sane who then gets all of the D's to vote for him? 

No?

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Sure.  Just saying it's still early yet and not really out of the ordinary -- so far.

True. A week from now he could secure his position. It's just funny given that there seems to be an actual issue from him. And even if he gets it, I wouldn't make a title bet that he keeps it past the 4th of July. He's a weak candidate on every level. You, I or Larry would each make better Speakers, regardless of party.

5 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

They aren't available because the people making decisions aren't willing to push for it.  Which is what I've been criticizing the entire time.  If you think Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and co are doing everything thing they can to make that happen, I guess your position makes sense.  I think it's quite clear they aren't doing that.  

The votes are not there dude. That's the cold reality. I wish that they were because they should be in an society that can identify and resolve obvious problems. Welcome to the United States of America, where the working class gets fucked because lazy, rich idiots think they know what's best. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

America really is third world when it coms to worker rights. 7 days paid sick?

I get 5 or 6 weeks annual leave (albeit that is becaiee i only get 6 public holidays).

I get 6 months full pay sick leave, and thereaftet 6 months half-pay sick leave.

[JGP]

24 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

They did it as a separate vote- if Congress is going to intervene in negotiations between capital and labor and they always cater to capital I think it's fair to call them out on that.  Biden could have pushed for it.  Pelosi's comments on it just stressed how important it was to avoid any disruption.  Biden says "I'm pro labor" and then does something pro-corporate.  

OK, so game it out. 

Biden puts on Uncle Joe and says, You know what, I thought about it, and I'm not signing that. You got one week. There might have to be some executive orders. Dems, you better show up. DoJ too or whatever the fuck other US agency deals with it. 

Put everyone on notice. 

Biden could totally Uncle his way to the best for everyone. Can Jeffries make waves right now? Don't think so.

 

edit: belay all that

 

This though, what's best path forward for everyone, to you Larry?

[JGP]

Wait he did sign it didn't he? lol fml

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

America really is third world when it coms to worker rights. 7 days paid sick?

I get 5 or 6 weeks annual leave (albeit that is becaiee i only get 6 public holidays).

I get 6 months full pay sick leave, and thereaftet 6 months half-pay sick leave.

I've gone into work four times since Halloween. Maybe it gets fully paid, maybe it doesn't, but I haven't been fired while still getting all the benefits from working for a hospital. Every situation is different.

Can't lie though, breaking your foot just before the World Cup started in a snowy place has been pretty sweet.

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

True. A week from now he could secure his position. It's just funny given that there seems to be an actual issue from him. And even if he gets it, I wouldn't make a title bet that he keeps it past the 4th of July. He's a weak candidate on every level. You, I or Larry would each make better Speakers, regardless of party.

The votes are not there dude. That's the cold reality. I wish that they were because they should be in an society that can identify and resolve obvious problems. Welcome to the United States of America, where the working class gets fucked because lazy, rich idiots think they know what's best. 

First bolded- Then let the union go on strike.  Don't get involved, instead of kneecapping them. 

Second bolded- yes, and the elected leaders continue to enable this behavior.  Stop defending them.  Or don't.  

[DMC]

24 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

They did it as a separate vote- if Congress is going to intervene in negotiations between capital and labor and they always cater to capital I think it's fair to call them out on that.  Biden could have pushed for it.  Pelosi's comments on it just stressed how important it was to avoid any disruption.  Biden says "I'm pro labor" and then does something pro-corporate.  

To be fair Biden did say he'd keep fighting for it upon signing the (other) bill today:

Quote

He called the pay increase in the bill “historic,” but vowed to keep working for increased sick leave.  

“That fight isn’t over. I didn’t commit we would stop just because we couldn’t get it in this bill,” he said. 

I agree that isn't enough - and am skeptical of his commitment - but I think it should be noted.

The interesting thing is looking at the Senate Republicans that voted for the paid leave measure yesterday (it went 52-43 overall):  Braun, Cruz, Graham, Hawley, Kennedy, Rubio.  That's...quite the group, and very disappointing to see none of the typical "moderates" on board.

[Larry of the Lawn]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

True. A week from now he could secure his position. It's just funny given that there seems to be an actual issue from him. And even if he gets it, I wouldn't make a title bet that he keeps it past the 4th of July. He's a weak candidate on every level. You, I or Larry would each make better Speakers, regardless of party.

The votes are not there dude. That's the cold reality. I wish that they were because they should be in an society that can identify and resolve obvious problems. Welcome to the United States of America, where the working class gets fucked because lazy, rich idiots think they know what's best. 

First bolded- Then let the union go on strike.  Don't get involved, instead of kneecapping them. 

Second bolded- yes, and the elected leaders continue to enable this behavior.  Stop defending them.  Or don't.  

@DMC there's a difference between saying you're going to fight for something and actually doing it.  If you asked any member of Congress, I bet 530+ of them are "always fighting for workers."

 

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

@DMC there's a difference between saying you're going to fight for something and actually doing it.  If you asked any member of Congress, I bet 530+ of them are "always fighting for workers."

I'm well aware, thanks.  Just saying I think it should be noted considering your complaint - or at least mine - is a rhetorical one in Biden's failure to use the bully pulpit.  It's unrealistic to expect him to get five more Senate Republicans on board, but he still has the opportunity to make it a bigger issue.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

First bolded- Then let the union go on strike.  Don't get involved, instead of kneecapping them. 

I'm almost always supportive of union strikes. I just don't love them when they involve transportation. The workers gotta do what they've gotta do, but they're going to get other people fired as well. 

Quote

Second bolded- yes, and the elected leaders continue to enable this behavior.  Stop defending them.  Or don't.  

What am I defending? Telling you how the world works is not an endorsement of it. I've written here before on several occasions that I think someday we will live in a world without money, where abundance will do away with scarcity and healthcare bills are things that are taught in history books. But we're a long way from that. Best just to climb up the next rung on the ladder and know you did good as you continue upwards. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm almost always supportive of union strikes. I just don't love them when they involve transportation. The workers gotta do what they've gotta do, but they're going to get other people fired as well. 

What am I defending? Telling you how the world works is not an endorsement of it. I've written here before on several occasions that I think someday we will live in a world without money, where abundance will do away with scarcity and healthcare bills are things that are taught in history books. But we're a long way from that. Best just to climb up the next rung on the ladder and know you did good as you continue to climb. 

What are you defending?  You're defending Biden and company nudging a labor dispute to a resolution that favors the companies and not the workers.   

I criticized the administration's response to this dispute, and you said I was being unfair.  

What's the problem with a transportation strike?  That people are inconvenienced?  That's the entire point , and the only leverage workers have.  That's the essence of any strike.  

Maybe if you don't support that you don't support strikes as much as you think you do.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lake said:

What are you defending?  You're defending Biden and company nudging a labor dispute to a resolution that favors the companies and not the workers.   

I criticized the administration's response to this dispute, and you said I was being unfair.  

What's the problem with a transportation strike?  That people are inconvenienced?  That's the entire point , and the only leverage workers have.  That's the essence of any strike.  

Maybe if you don't support that you don't support strikes as much as you think you do.  

Do you think BLM protests blocking streets won anyone over? I ask that knowing how many people felt in the Twin Cities at the height of the 2020. protests.

[Larry of the Lawn]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Do you think BLM protests blocking streets won anyone over? I ask that knowing how many people felt in the Twin Cities at the height of the 2020. protests.

Lol, yeah if they just behaved a little better, followed a couple more rules, maybe police violence would have ended right then and there.

Like, you can just say what you think instead of beating around the bush.  Instead of trying to reframe BLM protests as a strike.   What's the similarity, for you?

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

What's the problem with a transportation strike?  That people are inconvenienced?  That's the entire point , and the only leverage workers have.  That's the essence of any strike.  

Maybe if you don't support that you don't support strikes as much as you think you do.  

Biden is the President of the United States, not the president of rail workers.  The costs of a strike are estimated to be $2 billion a day and potentially 700,000 workers their jobs - not to mention breaking down supply chains during the holiday season and exacerbating inflation/increased prices.  The agreement Congress passed is very close to the tentative agreement made months ago.  The wage increase is historic and the only real sticking point is paid sick leave.

From a cost-benefit analysis, you can still believe in strikes generally and fight for paid sick leave while acknowledging avoiding one in this case is far preferable to the alternative.  The latter is pretty much a no-brainer.

[Larry of the Lawn]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Biden is the President of the United States, not the president of rail workers.  The costs of a strike are estimated to be $2 billion a day and potentially 700,000 workers their jobs - not to mention breaking down supply chains during the holiday season and exacerbating inflation/increased prices.  The agreement Congress passed is very close to the tentative agreement made months ago.  The wage increase is historic and the only real sticking point is paid sick leave.

From a cost-benefit analysis, you can still believe in strikes generally and fight for paid sick leave while acknowledging avoiding one in this case is far preferable to the alternative.  The latter is pretty much a no-brainer.

I get that.  For me the no-brainer would be for congress to see the costs of that strike and make sure workers get what they need.*  The industry can give them what they are asking for and still remain very profitable.  My issue is that the way they avoid the strike.  They aren't even changing the most obvious cause of the strike.  Even if you are looking at this incredibly pragmatically with zero values, this is just kicking the can down the road.  The raise is only going to make that shitty schedule better for a very short period of time.  

*And if the votes aren't there then make some noise.   Biden response is weak and only benefits the railroads.