US politics - have you no sense of decency, sir?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Why is this something that should be voted on in congress?  Given the cost of a strike the railways would have had to come to the table.  But instead congress intervened with an outcome favorable to the railways.  

You keep saying a strike would turn people from the cause.  That's not historically accurate, and the point isn't to change hearts and minds, it's to use the only leverage labor has against a corporation, which is striking. 

You guys totally would have supported sending in the national guard or the Pinkerton's back in the day.  

Hey now, I killed ALL the Pinkertons I could when playing RDR2.

Winning the hearts and minds matters. You cannot simply discard that, especially when you need to change the votes and put pressure on various politicians. And I'm not interested in being historically accurate when you're making a nearly 200 year old reference. We live in 2022 America and must apply those exact sensibilities. How many people have you met these days who are cool with their ability to get to work being disrupted? I just don't see how a strike will achieve the stated outcome that his desired. A slowdown while informing people why the workers needed the benefits would be a better starting point, and again, I think seven days of sick leave is laughably low. I get around 30 days of PTO, plus right now I've been on leave for a month with an injury. I think every worker should have similar benefits. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

'Now is not the time' . (Also applies to any criticism of Dems from the left btw.)

Biden could simply use an EO. Obama did. For some reason he excluded railway workers though...

How would an executive order have bound Railroad companies that aren’t part of the Federal Government?

[Larry of the Lawn]

44 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hey now, I killed ALL the Pinkertons I could when playing RDR2.

Winning the hearts and minds matters. You cannot simply discard that, especially when you need to change the votes and put pressure on various politicians. And I'm not interested in being historically accurate when you're making a nearly 200 year old reference. We live in 2022 America and must apply those exact sensibilities. How many people have you met these days who are cool with their ability to get to work being disrupted? I just don't see how a strike will achieve the stated outcome that his desired. A slowdown while informing people why the workers needed the benefits would be a better starting point, and again, I think seven days of sick leave is laughably low. I get around 30 days of PTO, plus right now I've been on leave for a month with an injury. I think every worker should have similar benefits. 

Do you not understand that most labor disputes don't have the govt getting involved?  Why do you assume strikes stopped working at some point?  You keep saying this or dismissing any effectiveness of a strike as a thing of the past with zero evidence.  

Why is your assumption that the workers will be blamed for a strike as opposed to the corporations?

What is this about a "slowdown" as a strategy?  How does that work?  We've had a slowdown in rail freight caused by massive layoffs and overworking people.  It didn't get them paid sick leave. 

By the way, I am stoked for you that you get 30 days paid time off.  I'm glad you think every worker should have similar benefits.  Maybe you aren't in a very good position to dictate to other people how they should go about getting benefits.  I'm sure none of the people threatening a strike are as intelligent and worldly as you and your 30 days PTO, but maybe they actually understand what works?

Eta: to answer your question about being disrupted from getting to work... Most people I know would probably be fine with it when it's to stop workers from being exploited.  But that's just people I know.  And again, the public perception is less important than forcing the companies to act like humans for a second and fuck up their money.  

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How would an executive order have bound Railroad companies that aren’t part of the Federal Government?

This explains how that would work:

https://www.salon.com/2022/12/02/biden-pushed-to-seal-the-deal-on-paid-sick-leave-for-rail-workers_partner/

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lake said:

This explains how that would work:

https://www.salon.com/2022/12/02/biden-pushed-to-seal-the-deal-on-paid-sick-leave-for-rail-workers_partner/

For federal contractors… got it.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

For federal contractors… got it.

And another assessment:

https://prospect.org/labor/rail-impasse-your-questions-answered/

Which all goes back to the idea that Biden isn't actually a pro labor president and he's not doing everything in his power to get the paid sick leave.  But hey apparently it's unfair to say that, and I am spewing unthinking invective.

 

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m seeing nothing in the normal press.

The Verge has a long piece showing what a nothing the Great Twit Laptop Reveal By the Muskey via Taibbi is.  Ultimately the Great Reveal is ... Muskey & Co. have little to no reading comprehension. 

... promised Twitter exposé on the Hunter Biden story is a flop that doxxed multiple people
/ The documents don’t show what Musk thinks they show, and a US Representative is going to have to change his email address.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/2/23490863/elon-musk-twitter-expose-hunter-biden-flop-doxxed-multiple-people

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Eta: to answer your question about being disrupted from getting to work... Most people I know would probably be fine with it when it's to stop workers from being exploited.  But that's just people I know.  And again, the public perception is less important than forcing the companies to act like humans for a second and fuck up their money.  

Most people I know might say this until it impacted them, and then they'd aggressively turn against the people striking once their own job was on the line. 

Like what are we even talking about here? Can we return to reality? Or do you think people handle airline delays well? Now imagine the fear of getting fired injected into the situation.

Quote

Do you not understand that most labor disputes don't have the govt getting involved?  Why do you assume strikes stopped working at some point?  You keep saying this or dismissing any effectiveness of a strike as a thing of the past with zero evidence.  

https://www.pewresearch.org/2011/02/22/in-showdown-with-air-traffic-controllers-the-public-sided-with-reagan/

[Larry of the Lawn]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Most people I know might say this until it impacted them, and then they'd aggressively turn against the people striking once their own job was on the line. 

Like what are we even talking about here? Can we return to reality? Or do you think people handle airline delays well? Now imagine the fear of getting fired injected into the situation.

https://www.pewresearch.org/2011/02/22/in-showdown-with-air-traffic-controllers-the-public-sided-with-reagan/

You can just say you think people don't deserve basic job benefits if it inconveniences you.  Any position on whether or not Biden should modify Obama's EO?  Let me guess, there's probably a Parliamentarian or a Joe Manchin or Orphan Killing Machine that won't let that happen?

This isn't an airline delay back from your trip to wherever the fuck you vacation.  

eta: thanks for actually giving some kind of evidenciary support, even if it's from when a time when the American public was arguably more brainwashed by rightwing pro corporate bullshit than ever before.  Reagan won 49 states or some shit didn't he?  That was 40 years ago, get with 2022.  And it's irrelevant because it doesn't really matter what the public thinks! if the railroads have a legit financial threat they can be forced to do the right thing.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

or that the numbers thrown around by the railways as redmeat to the press are something to be afraid of.

Ah, so now the media is beholden to the railroad companies as well.  The conspiracy is MASSIVE!  Or, it's just well informed people with good intentions that think for themselves disagree with you.

3 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

You guys totally would have supported sending in the national guard or the Pinkerton's back in the day.

 Right because voting to impose a labor agreement that was on the goal line for months is totally the same.  Cori Bush, AOC, Omar, Jayapal, these are the types that send in the Pinkertons.

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

My experience of public transport strikes is that the public generally only turn against them if they schedule them directly on important national holidays (or against England games).

First, shutting down supply lines during the holiday season is indeed a big part of the concern.  Second, comparing labor disputes in the US to Europe does not grant much insight.  This is the country where Reagan just up and fired virtually every air traffic controller when they went on strike and ended up politically benefitting from it -- even when most observers thought it would be politically devastating to him.

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lake said:

And another assessment:

https://prospect.org/labor/rail-impasse-your-questions-answered/

Which all goes back to the idea that Biden isn't actually a pro labor president and he's not doing everything in his power to get the paid sick leave.  But hey apparently it's unfair to say that, and I am spewing unthinking invective.

.....you mean the link that says this?

Quote

Most unions fear that a rail strike could damage the economy and cause unemployment to significantly rise. The more sentient unions also fear that a rail strike that causes genuine economic dislocations could cause unions’ popularity, now at its highest point in the past 60 years, to go into a tailspin. Finally, they fear that if another moratorium is imposed and it falls to the next Congress to impose a settlement, the fact that Republicans will control the House means that the settlement will be significantly less worker-friendly than the flawed one now on the table.

As to the long view of history, I think Biden can still claim the mantle of our most pro-labor president. 

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

The Verge has a long piece showing what a nothing the Great Twit Laptop Reveal By the Muskey via Taibbi is.  Ultimately the Great Reveal is ... Muskey & Co. have little to no reading comprehension. 

... promised Twitter exposé on the Hunter Biden story is a flop that doxxed multiple people
/ The documents don’t show what Musk thinks they show, and a US Representative is going to have to change his email address.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/2/23490863/elon-musk-twitter-expose-hunter-biden-flop-doxxed-multiple-people

 

I halfway convinced myself this week that Elon Musk's antics are a prelude to running for President, before remembering he was born in SA.  It's sad that the richest man in the world, one supposedly running a half-dozen companies, really just wants you to pay attention to him no matter the reason.  It's reminiscent, in a weird inverted way, of GRRM's short story "the Second Kind of Loneliness".  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lake said:

You can just say you think people don't deserve basic job benefits if it inconveniences you. 

What the actual fuck are you talking about? I've said over and over I think they deserve better benefits than what they're demanding. The counterpoint has always been that I don't think a strike will get those benefits while also hurting a lot of other people who have no skin in the game except they're just trying to get to work. 

Quote

eta: thanks for actually giving some kind of evidenciary support, even if it's from when a time when the American public was arguably more brainwashed by rightwing pro corporate bullshit than ever before.  Reagan won 49 states or some shit didn't he?  That was 40 years ago, get with 2022.  And it's irrelevant because it doesn't really matter what the public thinks! if the railroads have a legit financial threat they can be forced to do the right thing.

You cited shit from 150 years ago. Something that's 40 years old is a lot more relevant and a better window into how everyday Americans think. 

[Corvinus85]

I can't help but feel that Biden and the Dems just lost hundreds of thousands of votes for 2024. What could they have lost if Biden had forced the corporations to give the rail workers the paid sick days they asked for? More cries about socialism from the right? lol

[DMC]

42 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I can't help but feel that Biden and the Dems just lost hundreds of thousands of votes for 2024. What could they have lost if Biden had forced the corporations to give the rail workers the paid sick days they asked for? More cries about socialism from the right? lol

Well, first of all, no, I don't think this is going to cost the Dems votes in 2024 just because people on this thread are freaking out.  Second, could Biden issue an EO giving rail workers paid sick leave?  Sure! 

What people don't seem to understand is the courts can strike down that EO.  And there's about a 99.9% chance there's six SC justices that would do just that.  Particularly because - as I linked to above - Congress has statutory authority to resolve rail worker disputes.  That's..why Biden went through Congress.  And why Biden/Congress stepped in in the first place - they don't have that ability for most labor disputes.  And why Obama exempted rail workers in his aforementioned EO.

Now, I'm not necessarily opposed to Biden issuing an EO anyway, but it'd be purely symbolic.  It'd fall in the category of using a rhetorical strategy/the bully pulpit discussed earlier.  Considering he has to work with McConnell over the next month to try and pass a budget, the NDAA, and maybe (hopefully!) some other things like ECA reform, I'm not particularly surprised the Biden administration is not gung-ho about doing so.

[Martell Spy]

Newt Gingrich warns Republicans that Joe Biden is winning the fight
Former speaker who led charge against Bill Clinton raises eyebrows with column heralding Democrat’s first-term success

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/03/newt-gingrich-republicans-joe-biden-winning

Quote

 

Republicans must “quit underestimating” Joe Biden, the former US House speaker Newt Gingrich said, because the president is winning the fight.

Writing on his own website, Gingrich said: “Conservatives’ hostility to the Biden administration on our terms tends to blind us to just how effective Biden has been on his terms.

“… We dislike Biden so much, we pettily focus on his speaking difficulties, sometimes strange behavior, clear lapses of memory and other personal flaws. Our aversion to him and his policies makes us underestimate him and the Democrats.”

Gingrich’s words pleased the White House – Ron Klain, Joe Biden’s chief of staff, tweeted a link with the message: “You don’t have to take my word for it, any more.”

The column also caused consternation among Washington commentators, in part because, as Axios put it, “a leader of the GOP’s ’90s-era New Right [is] arguing that Joe Biden is not just a winner – but a role model”.

 

 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Newt Gingrich warns Republicans that Joe Biden is winning the fight

Saw that yesterday.  Thought it was pretty hilarious.

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

Yeah when you actually try to define “woke” being against it seems really fucking evil.

[James Arryn]

cant type well, complications, sorry i'll add comment after rest:  

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
 

Trump calls for termination of the Constitution (and all rules and regulations) in Truth Social Post. 

Trump: “Do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION? A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,” Trump wrote in a post on the social network Truth Social and accused “Big Tech” of working closely with Democrats. “Our great ‘Founders’ did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!”

 

Comment: Is THIS the straw that finally…nah. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Yeah when you actually try to define “woke” being against it seems really fucking evil.

That's why we have to get rid of the Constitution. Though the WaPo put up a very long piece today as to why there is every reason to have the broken bird twit that covid misinformation is just fine for it to disseminate and nobody should protest or try to stop that free speech and interchange of information, yesterday coverage wrt the tRump was -- get this wording!

-- White House rebukes Trump’s suggestion to suspend Constitution over 2020 election

He didn't use the word 'suspend' he said throw out/terminate.  And it's not that he said this, its that Biden 'rebuked.' WTF.

That columnist shilling misinfo re covid should be free speech should be ... well, I know what Samuel Adams would suggest about her!

 

 

[LongRider]

Trump’s communique sounded to me like this; terminate the US Constitution so he can be the dictator he planned to be if he had not lost/stolen the election or had his coup attempt been successful.