US politics - have you no sense of decency, sir?

[Zorral]

Quote

“Politics, as practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds.”

Henry Adams, who, as great grandson of John Adams and grandso of John Quincy Adams, would know.

[ThinkerX]

19 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

There must be plenty of Christian nationalists who would support a constitutional convention in the belief that the silent moral majority would support changing the country into a proper and explicitly Christian "shariah" state. Then there will be another civil war over which version of Christian law is used to subjugate the masses.

Or do they believe the constitution already establishes religion despite it explicitly not establishing religion, so no constitutional convention necessary?

They believe the US was founded as a Christian Nation and the things they disagree with represent a moral failing on the rest of the populace. Arguments like 'separation of church and state' and the First Amendment simply do not register with these people.

On a somewhat brighter note, Christian groups tend to have bitter theological divisions, meaning they feud amongst themselves rather frequently. Case in point, the recent split of the Methodists (?) in Texas and elsewhere (?) on the gay rights issue. Likewise, protestants and Catholics view each other as heretics. Should a leader emerge who could bridge that particular divide, then the US is in deep trouble. About the only bright side there is this would be more of a temporary alliance than a binding compact. 

[The Anti-Targ]

The Irony would be that the Christian groups (and non-Chrisitans it goes without saying) who missed out on sitting on the ruling council would be inclined to flee the US in the pursuit of religious freedom in a new land. Has a bit of a de ja vous feeling about it.

[DMC]

Let's not conflate "Christian nationalists" with all Christians in the US.  The Christian right primarily consists of white evangelicals.

[The Anti-Targ]

Certainly wasn't any intent to conflate the two, given the fact of predicting considerable flight of a lot of Christians from the US should it turn into a Christian nationalist hellscape.

Which to be clear I don't think it ever will. Though there is no guarantee that it won't turn into some kind of hellscape; and apologies to any who's lives are so oppressed that they are already experiencing some sort of hellscape in their lives.

Edited December 6, 2022 by The Anti-Targ

[Spockydog]

4 hours ago, JGP said:

 Avenatti just got 14 years in prison lol

What a bellend.

[LongRider]

Don’t forget, tomorrow is Election Day in Georgia!

 

[ThinkerX]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Let's not conflate "Christian nationalists" with all Christians in the US.  The Christian right primarily consists of white evangelicals.

True. Evangelical Christians see more liberal denominations as being 'weak in faith' at best or 'not true Christians' at all. We are fortunate there are deep divisions between the evangelical factions, especially Protestants and Catholics.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, ThinkerX said:

True. Evangelical Christians see more liberal denominations as being 'weak in faith' at best or 'not true Christians' at all. We are fortunate there are deep divisions between the evangelical factions, especially Protestants and Catholics.

There may be divisions between them, but all can do damage. The Catholic group, Opus Dei, which has ties to the Federalist Society and has influenced Supreme Court justice selections. 
The link is to an article about Opus Dei and the Supreme Court. 
 

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/niallodowd/right-wing-catholics-control-us-supreme-court.amp 
 

[The Anti-Targ]

Division between evangelical factions simply makes them compete for being the at the uttermost end of the extreme. Hopefully that eventually causes them to fall off the edge into oblivion and irrelevance. But on their way there they can do a lot of damage, and they will probably become ever more violent on that journey.

Edited December 6, 2022 by The Anti-Targ

[A Horse Named Stranger]

11 hours ago, Zorral said:

Henry Adams, who, as great grandson of John Adams and grandso of John Quincy Adams, would know.

Was it John Adams the elder who famously ended his speeches before the Senate with Ceterum censeo Floridanem esse delendam? (192)

You should have listened to the man.

Anyway, for a nation opposed to the monarchy your founders were kinda fond of benign (?) elite ruling class to be in charge of things. I vaguely recall reading something from Maddison to that extent back in highschool (something from the Federalist papers iirc).

Edited December 6, 2022 by A Horse Named Stranger

[Corvinus85]

12 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

The Irony would be that the Christian groups (and non-Chrisitans it goes without saying) who missed out on sitting on the ruling council would be inclined to flee the US in the pursuit of religious freedom in a new land. Has a bit of a de ja vous feeling about it.

I wish them luck in Antarctica.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

13 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Has a bit of a de ja vous feeling about it.

It's deja-vu btw.

I left out the accents out of lazyness (but for those who want to be precise déjà-vu).

Deja means already. and vu is conjugation of the verb voir (to see).

vous on the other hand is a personal pronoun (equivalent to you (plural form, or formal/respectful version of you singular)).

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by A Horse Named Stranger

[Fragile Bird]

10 hours ago, LongRider said:

There may be divisions between them, but all can do damage. The Catholic group, Opus Dei, which has ties to the Federalist Society and has influenced Supreme Court justice selections. 
The link is to an article about Opus Dei and the Supreme Court. 
 

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/niallodowd/right-wing-catholics-control-us-supreme-court.amp 
 

Let me tell you, many Catholics consider them an extreme cult.

 

11 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

True. Evangelical Christians see more liberal denominations as being 'weak in faith' at best or 'not true Christians' at all. We are fortunate there are deep divisions between the evangelical factions, especially Protestants and Catholics.

Ages ago I read an article about how the abortion issue made strange religious bedfellows. Abortion has always been a hot button issue for Catholics, while Protestants in the US didn’t really care. In fact, back in the 60s Christianity Today held a big conference on it with various Protestant theologians saying it was morally ambiguous. And get this - that a woman’s body was her own, not the property of someone else. And that if a woman needed to have an abortion it was better to err on the side of grace and allow it.

The Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution calling for the legalization of abortion in 1971! Billy Graham, like other evangelicals, said the Bible didn’t refer to the status of fetus anywhere, so abortion was okay.

Catholics were organizing against Roe, Protestants were trying to stop a far more important battle, desegregation.

What evangelicals were doing was setting up private, whites-only, religious schools and the IRS starting going after their tax exempt status. Abortion was picked up in the late 70s as a “religious freedom” issue that made everyone feel good and countered attacks on their tax status, and distracted from the fight against desegregation.

As a Catholic (who, btw, absolutely agrees with the original ‘a woman’s body is her own business’ evangelical argument) I always wondered how the hell Protestants joined Catholics on the abortion topic,

Edited December 6, 2022 by Fragile Bird
Sp

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

It seems the families of Capitol Police officers who were injured on 1/6/2021 aren’t fond of the Republican Party:

 

[LongRider]

 

 

[LongRider]

Quote

 

Special counsel Jack Smith has subpoenaed local officials in Arizona, Michigan and Wisconsin — three states that were central to former president Donald Trump’s failed plan to stay in power following the 2020 election — for any and all communications with Trump, his campaign and a long list of aides and allies.

The requests for records arrived in Dane County, Wis.; Maricopa County, Ariz.; and Wayne County, Mich., late last week, and in Milwaukee on Monday, officials said. They are among the first known subpoenas issued by Smith, who was named last month by Attorney General Merrick Garland to oversee the Jan. 6 Capitol attack case as well as the criminal probe of Trump’s possible mishandling of classified documents at his Florida home.

 

Looks like the folks who fucked around are beginning to find out.  Go Jack Smith!

Special counsel Jack Smith subpoenas Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin officials for Trump communications in Jan. 6 probe - The Washington Post 

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

ohn Adams the elder who famously ended his speeches before the Senate with Ceterum censeo Floridanem esse delendam?

Darling, is this a test?

Florida wasn't part of the US when John Adams was Washington's vice president. And wouldn't be until after the Republic was over and it all became Jackson's.

Nobody wanted Florida destroyed. They wanted it for themselves -- and to end it as a refuge territory for the self-emancipated.

Just a teeny addition: You appear to be joking good nature, re Florida, and Florida being Florida even more as it has been all its history, but, maybe it's just me, but even good natured ribbing all the time of someone who is living in a state of that nature, doesn't seem quite, well, fair.  We live where we need to live.  We can't all live in my friends' Chesapeake small county seat that works hard to be the unachievable utopia. If it were large, it's highly unlikely it would be as good as it has managed to become.   

Edited December 6, 2022 by Zorral

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It seems the families of Capitol Police officers who were injured on 1/6/2021 aren’t fond of the Republican Party

McConnell trying to shake their hands and McCarthy not even bothering just about sums it up.

[Zorral]

I saw that vid!  They chatted with Nancy and Chuck and didn't even see those other two clowns.