Rhaenyra was a usurper

[Virriel]

If anyone thinks I am wrong, prove it.

if the king had the right to change the rules of succession himself then perhaps you can tell me why there was a grand council at Harrenhal? Why was Aegon the lord of Dragonstone before the conquest and not the elder Visenya? Not to mention Aegon IV and his attempt to change the succession, where only the lack of dragons on the Targ side prevented him from doing so (which led to and Blackfyr rebellion anyway). Maegor appointed Aerea as his successor, Jaehaerys I became ruler. Viserys was an idiot if he thought anyone would accept his wish long term, if Rhaenyra had become ruler, no lord who had an older sister could have slept peacefully anymore, as the social construct would have collapsed completely. Imagine what kind of anarchy Viserys would have led to if Rhaenyra had taken over, then the children of each lord's eldest sister with other lords would have had greater rights to their lands. Even in an absolutist monarchy there was no way for a ruler to change the laws of succession lest they lead to anarchy. You think why Viserys forced the lords to swear allegiance to Rhaenyra if he thought his decision would be enough to change the succession. Besides, even Rhaenyra's children did not recognise her as queen and Aegon III inherited the throne through the line of Daemon rather than Rhaenyra. Keep in mind that if we consider the royal will to be of the utmost importance, then Rhaegar's children have no claim to the throne, the whole Aegon storyline makes no sense put it that way, after all Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and his kids. As soon as Aegon was born, Rhaenyra ceased to be the heir to the throne, due to Westeros customary law and even the book's Stannis makes that clear, and there is probably no fairer person than Stannis. Jaehaerys never appointed his heir because he knew he had no right to do so, hence the council at Harrenhal.

Rhaenyra's children, specifically Viserys II himself came to the throne, leaving out the only surviving and eldest daughter of Aegon III, as women do not inherit the iron throne under any circumstances is the first point. I'm not a fan of monarchy, but it had its pluses and place in history because of the natural course of history, an aristocracy started to emerge from chieftains elected for times of war, this tribal aristocracy turned into a dynasty and so on and so forth, succession in the male line also comes from this (a man could single-handedly defend the land granted by the ruler).

I have seen many say that the monarch has absolute power in Westeros.

And absolute power in a monarchy manifests itself in the fact that the king has control of the legislature, the executive and the judiciary.

They are completely wrong, it was precisely the other way around - the early Middle Ages and its heyday was a period of the weakest royal power in all of feudal Europe, there were instances such as in England where John without Land had less personal wealth than most of the lords under him and had absolutely no say in governance. It was not until modernity and the development of a more modern tax system and the efficiency of tax collection, that central authority (in this case royal authority) was consolidated

Rhaenyra is backed by two major royal families - the Starks (who take a different approach to succession, the whole family comes from a woman, otherwise it would die out and Rhaenyre's heir married Cregan Stark's bastard sister) and the Arrins (Rhaenyra's aunt rules the Vale, she backs her because of blood ties and the fear that otherwise she will lose power in the Vale herself), later on the Tullys join as well, but that's because Aegon burned half of the Vale. The Blacks won the war biologically, the Greens won the war ideologically, although I have theories about Catelyn being the offspring of the child of Aemond and Alys Rivers, thus Bran becoming king will lead to the eventual victory of the Greens. Okay now back to Jaehaerys, he never chose his successor, he only made the decision after the great council at Harrenhal. Of course Baelon was given the Dragon Rock because he was his eldest male descendant, the queen was furious because she hoped he would do the same as Viserys and unlawfully declare his eldest daughter the heir. Once again Maegor also proclaimed a woman as his heir, but Jaehaerys became king because no one ever recognised his decision. You can also point me to a country where it was the king who chose his successor in the Middle Ages. There were instances, I can think of two - Henry II skipped his eldest son Richard I and chose John as his successor, but it was still Richard I the Lionheart who eventually became king. John only became king after his death.

Perhaps you can enlighten me and show an example where the king changed the right of succession for himself in Europe. 

Viserys was an idiot, because if he wanted Rhaenyra to rule he should not remarry, send Daemon to the wall and thus prevent him from inheriting, marry Rhaenyra to Baratheon/Velaryon (I don't remember who succeeded Daemon, Laenor or Boremund) then Rhaenyra having a dragon and being married to a king would rule Westeros from the back seat. If Viserys decided that Aegon was up to no good and disinherited him, then in that case Aemond would also face rebellion from the majority of the kingdom, unless he got permission from the great families to do so. Westeros is not a modern absolutist monarchy, but a feudal kingdom. 

Stannis from what I remember claims that Rhaenyra was a usurper and had no right to the throne, that's why she was killed by her brother, his POV from A Storm of Swords I read about 10 years ago so I won't quot e exactly.

[Nathan Stark]

Lol, no. The Great Counsil was only to resolve the succesion crisis, not to make law by decree. That's the King's job. King Viserys declared Rheanyra his heir, and the lords of the realm swore fealty, and that is what is legally binding, not an appeal to tradition.

[frenin]

6 hours ago, Virriel said:

if the king had the right to change the rules of succession himself then perhaps you can tell me why there was a grand council at Harrenhal?

To ensure a smooth transition after a succesion crisis.

 

6 hours ago, Virriel said:

Why was Aegon the lord of Dragonstone before the conquest and not the elder Visenya

Why has this to do with westerosi succesion?

 

6 hours ago, Virriel said:

Not to mention Aegon IV and his attempt to change the succession,

He never tried.

 

6 hours ago, Virriel said:

Maegor appointed Aerea as his successor, Jaehaerys I became ruler.

Via force.

 

6 hours ago, Virriel said:

if Rhaenyra had become ruler, no lord who had an older sister could have slept peacefully anymore, as the social construct would have collapsed completely. Imagine what kind of anarchy Viserys would have led to if Rhaenyra had taken over, then the children of each lord's eldest sister with other lords would have had greater rights to their lands.

This has some strong "if we stop working children economy will collapse" vibes.

[Lord Varys]

The Great Council was effectively just a way to figure out which claimant was most popular with the lords of the Realm. Jaehaerys I realized that thanks to his controversial earlier ruling in 92 AC his decision alone would likely not be enough to prevent a succession war.

But the royal family didn't swear or agree to bow to the will of the lords. Rhaenys and Corlys ended up not pushing their claim ... but not because some gathering of lords or the king forbid them, but because they realized it would be very hard, perhaps even impossible, to seize the throne if so many lords favored Viserys.

[Craving Peaches]

The whole situation was no good. Targaryens should have picked one succession rule and stuck to it. Either the king choses the heir or they follow the succession laws that everyone else does.

[frenin]

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The whole situation was no good. Targaryens should have picked one succession rule and stuck to it. Either the king choses the heir or they follow the succession laws that everyone else does.

Aegon picked and groomed Aenys as his heir, Maegor usurped the throne and chose Aerea as heir, Jaeharys took the throne by force and ignored the custom and  by passing over Rhaenys twice, he then came up with the idea of Great Council  to choose Viserys, Viserys ignored custom  by naming Rhaenyra his heir ahead of his sons.

If there's something Viserys learnt from the previous kings is that he could rule over his succession however he wanted.

[Golos2022]

Except that succession was an issue where it did not work.

Only the founder of the realm could get away with it. His successors either failed or accepted that others in the realm also had a vote.

[Lord Varys]

The Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne is always named, just as 'Prince of Dragonstone' is a title the monarch grants or withholds at his or her whim.

Whenever a king doesn't name or anoint an heir things get confusing as hell, and even if he does do that things could get fucked up. Think of Robert's succession. If there is no named heir everything is up for grabs - in part we see this with Balon Greyjoy's succession. He groomed Asha to succeed him but he never formally disinherited or passed over Theon, nor did he formally anoint Asha as his successor as ruler of the Iron Islands.

Theon's example also shows that being an eldest surviving son means more or less horseshit when you have never been groomed to rule, when you lack the connections and standing that comes with sitting by your (royal) father's side all your life.

On the lordly level we see this with Tyrion - he just fancies himself Tywin's heir, but he isn't, because Tywin never named or acknowledged or treated him as his heir.

Most Targaryen kings didn't succeed their fathers or brothers or other relations because they were 'the rightful heir' as 'per the laws of the land' ... because there are laws regulating the royal succession. They did succeed them, because the kings in question named them their heirs, groomed them as their successors, and put them into a position of power where the eventual succession to the throne was (more or less) easily accomplished.

It didn't always work, and it didn't always work smoothly, but most of the time it did. And it didn't work because people only found out that the king had a son he wanted to succeed him when the guy was dying ... they usually had been aware of that fact for a very long time by that point.

[SeanF]

In answer to the O/P, we’ve already seen the Targaryens make big changes to the Law of Succession already, without the consent of the lords.

The Widow’s Law of Jaehaerys I, required the widows of lords to receive an inheritance, along with the children of first marriages.  Prior to that, lords could bequeath their estates to the children of subsequent marriages.  If the law followed Medieval English custom, then the widow would have received one third of the income for life, from the estate of her deceased husband.  

It’s somewhat similar to the succession laws of countries that adopted the Code Napoleon, which limits testamentary freedom.

Some lords may have disliked this law, but the will of the king prevailed.

This does not affect the right to inherit the Iron Throne, but it does show that the king can alter inheritance laws, as he wishes.

As to the Iron Throne, the king can appoint his successor, from his own family.  This was in fact, accepted by most lords, at the time of the Dance.  The list of lords who supported the Blacks was twice as long as the list of lords who supported the Greens.

The Greens hid the fact of Viserys I’s death,   and staged a coup, because they knew they were on weak ground, legally, in attempting to dispossess the king’s heir.  Had they been confident of their case, they could have summoned a Great Council.

There is no Act of Succession in Westeros that stipulates who is to inherit the throne, nor any form of Parliament whose consent is required.

The King’s decreed and accepted heir is, by definition, no usurper.

 

 

 

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Rhaenyra was chosen by her father, the king.  She was the legitimate heir and the rightful successor. 

[Alden Rothack]

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Rhaenyra was chosen by her father, the king.  She was the legitimate heir and the rightful successor. 

yes, while the lords may have prefered Viserys he only became the rightful sucessor when the king agreed it was so