Tyrosh Lannister Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 The Lannisters were already Wardens of the West. Why name them Wardens of the East also? Plus, this would be a huge huge insult to the Arryns and Houses of the Vale, as this role is traditionally held by the Arryns/Valemen. Lannisters would hold even more power. Also... Jaime is a mere knight of the Kingsguard. He is young. He also has the reputation of breaking his vows as he murdered King Aerys. What qualifications can he possibly have to make Robert name him as Warden of the East? What was Robert thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 I think this is one of the weird things in the first book. Obviously Robert Arryn isn't suitable, but that doesn't mean Jaime needs to get the role. Robert's main concern is that he doesn't want a sickly young boy in charge in case of a Dothraki invasion. So he could pick Yohn Royce, or any other lord from the Vale who's not a boy. He could pick either one of his brothers. There wasn't really a reason why it had to be Jaime. Maybe because he was a good battle commander, but other than that I don't see why. It would also stop him carrying out his Kingsguard duties effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Robert as usual wasn't thinking Stannis should have got it, Master of Ships should be the Warden of the East anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrosh Lannister Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I think this is one of the weird things in the first book. Obviously Robert Arryn isn't suitable, but that doesn't mean Jaime needs to get the role. Robert's main concern is that he doesn't want a sickly young boy in charge in case of a Dothraki invasion. So he could pick Yohn Royce, or any other lord from the Vale who's not a boy. He could pick either one of his brothers. There wasn't really a reason why it had to be Jaime. Maybe because he was a good battle commander, but other than that I don't see why. It would also stop him carrying out his Kingsguard duties effectively. Yeah Robert could have picked the Royces or let Lysa take the role until sweetrobin comes of age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Tyrosh Lannister said: or let Lysa I don't think that would happen because the position involves leading armies and Lysa is a woman so they likely wouldn't even consider giving it to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: Stannis should have got it, Master of Ships should be the Warden of the East anyway The issue is that Stannis rather unhelpfully went back to Dragonstone and is recieving no communications from anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Point even though thats in large part Roberts fault for not giving it to him immediately after Jon Arryn died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: even though thats in large part Roberts fault for not giving it to him immediately after Jon Arryn died Giving him Handship or Warden of the East? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Jon Arryn was both and twice the age, He should have done it then and there of course he'd have to listen occasionally if he made him hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 36 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: Jon Arryn was both and twice the age, He should have done it then and there Why should he make Stannis Hand though? He is already Master of Ships, and he doesn't get along that well with anyone. He's already tried to implement unpopular and silly rules like banning prostitution. I don't think he'd make a very good Hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hnv Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Seems like some blooper by George. In the first book it is implied that somehow the armies of the Vale (and?) would simply abide to his authority. But we learn later that when push comes to shove people wipe their arses with royal decrees and do as their liege lord tells them. We also don't get any indication the role of Warden of the X is anything more than ceremonial. We never hear of any Warden that invokes his authority using that role. Tywin is Warden of the West ex officio to being lord paramount but he doesn't order his lords around as warden. On the other hand Mace is Warden ex officio as well and Dorne couldn't care less. It seems like a literary ploy to show the significance Robert puts to Targaryen threat, but it really didn't end up serving this purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said: The Lannisters were already Wardens of the West. Why name them Wardens of the East also? Plus, this would be a huge huge insult to the Arryns and Houses of the Vale, as this role is traditionally held by the Arryns/Valemen. Lannisters would hold even more power. Also... Jaime is a mere knight of the Kingsguard. He is young. He also has the reputation of breaking his vows as he murdered King Aerys. What qualifications can he possibly have to make Robert name him as Warden of the East? What was Robert thinking? 2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I think this is one of the weird things in the first book. Obviously Robert Arryn isn't suitable, but that doesn't mean Jaime needs to get the role. Robert's main concern is that he doesn't want a sickly young boy in charge in case of a Dothraki invasion. So he could pick Yohn Royce, or any other lord from the Vale who's not a boy. He could pick either one of his brothers. There wasn't really a reason why it had to be Jaime. Maybe because he was a good battle commander, but other than that I don't see why. It would also stop him carrying out his Kingsguard duties effectively. 2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said: Robert as usual wasn't thinking Stannis should have got it, Master of Ships should be the Warden of the East anyway I think Cersei may have been doing thinking for Robert. As for this: 44 minutes ago, hnv said: It seems like a literary ploy to show the significance Robert puts to Targaryen threat, but it really didn't end up serving this purpose. Rather, I would say it is a plot device to show how much influence Lannisters have, and to start setting up conflict between the Starks (Ned) and the Lannisters. As extensive as Martin's worldbuilding is, it is rather shallow. So such plot devices aren't surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 I'm inclined to agree that this is a first-book oddity: GRRM later functionally abandoned the idea of making a thing of the Wardens (seriously, do they have any significance in the series or indeed in the histories?), so this exchange doesn't really go anywhere useful. If I remember rightly, Ned also points out that Jaime will inherit the Wardenship of the West when Tywin dies as an objection to Jaime's appointment, but Jaime is Kingsguard so won't inherit anything from Tywin. Another kink that had yet to be worked out. The real significance of the exchange is to demonstrate the influence the Lannisters have over Robert: Robert is being pushed to appoint Cersei's brother to a position for which he is ill-suited and which will offend people to whom Ned thinks Robert owes a responsibility. This would be the case even if the position were a sinecure (which with the benefit of hindsight GRRM might have made it, albeit this isn't the way Ned frames his objection). I always find the Stannis fan club entertaining on these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: There wasn't really a reason why it had to be Jaime. Maybe because he was a good battle commander, but other than that I don't see why. How would anyone know that Jaime is a good battle commander? We never hear an account of him actively leading troops before the War of the Five Kings, and just four battles in, he gets captured and his army is annihilated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Canon Claude said: How would anyone know that Jaime is a good battle commander? We never hear an account of him actively leading troops before the War of the Five Kings, and just four battles in, he gets captured and his army is annihilated. In the early stages of the war, Jamie seems like a legendary battle commander. He seems to easily destroy one Tully army after the next and in a very short span of time. He also has River Run under siege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Just now, sifth said: In the early stages of the war, Jamie seems like a legendary battle commander. He seems to easily destroy one Tully army after the next and in a very short span of time. He also has River Run under siege. That was later, though, plus it wasn’t exactly a crazy stretch. He outnumbered his enemies and he’d taken them by surprise. Not exactly a Robb Stark situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 6 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said: What qualifications can he possibly have to make Robert name him as Warden of the East? What was Robert thinking? One of those weird first book thngs. 6 hours ago, Alden Rothack said: Robert as usual wasn't thinking Stannis should have got it, Master of Ships should be the Warden of the East anyway Naming Stannis Warden of the East is pretty absurd, especially given the fact that the Vale Lords have expressed that they would take orders for anyone but the Arrys. It's not like the Lannisters benefited at all by having that title and i fail to see how it'd have served Stannis. The title should have stayed at the Eyrie because it was not good anywhere. And the Master of the Ships should not be Warden of the East too. 29 minutes ago, sifth said: He seems to easily destroy one Tully army after the next and in a very short span of time. He also has River Run under siege. He heavily outnumbers his foes. Another first book oddity is that Jaime is hyped, when we can pretty much say that it is the first time he is given command of an army. But then again, there are a lot of things odd in the first book. Jaime mistrusts Littlefinger in the first book but then trusts him in the fourth... no reasons given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Canon Claude said: How would anyone know that Jaime is a good battle commander? Robert might assume he is because he's a good swordsman, or think he's fit to lead because he's a good swordsman. But you're right that it wouldn't necessarily make him a good battle commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 What is the point of the Arryns being wardens West you have the Ironborn, South was originally Dorne, North is the Wildlings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said: What is the point of the Arryns being wardens West you have the Ironborn, South was originally Dorne, North is the Wildlings A point of pride, presumably. The titles are symbolic anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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