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Why did Robert name Jaime as warden of the East?


Tyrosh Lannister
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1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

That was later, though, plus it wasn’t exactly a crazy stretch. He outnumbered his enemies and he’d taken them by surprise. Not exactly a Robb Stark situation.

He didn’t take all of them by surprise. 

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2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

A point of pride, presumably. The titles are symbolic anyway.

not necessarily its just most of the time armies from across the realm are lead by either a royal or the hand

if there were a lot of times where they should have been led by wardens and they weren't then we would know the title was only symbolic

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9 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

The Lannisters were already Wardens of the West. Why name them Wardens of the East also? 

I also think it's a literary ploy, but part of the fantasy strand, not the world-building one. In a war between the seasons, someone controlling both the east and west, the sunrise and the sunset, would have the ultimate winning hand - so I'm guessing this double wardenship represents the disaster scenario. Luckily it never happened.

Another good thing is it suggests Jaime has a role in the battle for the dawn, so he probably won't fall easy prey to Lady Stoneheart.

3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

How would anyone know that Jaime is a good battle commander? We never hear an account of him actively leading troops before the War of the Five Kings, and just four battles in, he gets captured and his army is annihilated.

He's had a lot of warhorses killed under him though, so a lot of war somewhere.

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2 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

What is the point of the Arryns being wardens

West you have the Ironborn, South was originally Dorne, North is the Wildlings

The Warden of the East would be the most strategically important of all four! They would lead the defenses in any aggression from Essos. And Robert specifically mentions that he doesn't want a boy as Warden of the East because he fears that the Targaryens and their Dothraki allies may try to launch an invasion.

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Stannis should have got it, Master of Ships should be the Warden of the East anyway

But that's addressed in the book. Eddard says that "If Robert Arryn will not do, name one of your brothers. Stannis proved himself at the siege of Storm’s End, surely." To which the king "frowns and says nothing".

We must accept that Robert couldn't stand their brothers. Specially Stannis. To the point that he wouldn't trust them with any additional responsibility. And in Stannis' case, he wasn't wrong, as he abandoned him and fled to Dragonstone once he suspected that Jon Arryn may have been killed, and didn't bother to warn him that his own life may be in danger too.

Also, from Robert's perspective, it would make some sense to name Jaime as Warden of the East. THe kingslayer is probably the person in all Westeros more interested in making sure that the Targaryens do not return. He could be sure that he would do his best in that duty.

6 hours ago, Adelstein said:

GRRM later functionally abandoned the idea of making a thing of the Wardens (seriously, do they have any significance in the series or indeed in the histories?)

The main instance where they may be of significance is in the Battle of the Redgrass Field. We know that it took place somewhere in the Crownlands, and still, Lord Arryn (who would be the Warden of the East) seems to lead the reds in the beginning.

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11 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The Warden of the East would be the most strategically important of all four! They would lead the defenses in any aggression from Essos. And Robert specifically mentions that he doesn't want a boy as Warden of the East because he fears that the Targaryens and their Dothraki allies may try to launch an invasion.

But that's addressed in the book. Eddard says that "If Robert Arryn will not do, name one of your brothers. Stannis proved himself at the siege of Storm’s End, surely." To which the king "frowns and says nothing".

We must accept that Robert couldn't stand their brothers. Specially Stannis. To the point that he wouldn't trust them with any additional responsibility. And in Stannis' case, he wasn't wrong, as he abandoned him and fled to Dragonstone once he suspected that Jon Arryn may have been killed, and didn't bother to warn him that his own life may be in danger too.

I suspect Stannis did warn Robert his life was in danger several times and he ignored it

Robert didn't even explain to Ned, the man he loved more than either of his actual brothers why he didn't give it to Stannis because like several other things he doesn't have a reason

the irony is that both Ned and Robert have /had brothers like the other and Ned liked and loved Brandon whereas Robert dislikes even hates Stannis

11 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Also, from Robert's perspective, it would make some sense to name Jaime as Warden of the East. THe kingslayer is probably the person in all Westeros more interested in making sure that the Targaryens do not return. He could be sure that he would do his best in that duty.

its a terrible idea, Jaime is a passable army commander but has no skill that we know of with fleets, Stannis is brillant at both

The main instance where they may be of significance is in the Battle of the Redgrass Field. We know that it took place somewhere in the Crownlands, and still, Lord Arryn (who would be the Warden of the East) seems to lead the reds in the beginning.

its

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On 11/21/2022 at 5:41 PM, Alden Rothack said:

I suspect Stannis did warn Robert his life was in danger several times and he ignored it

Robert didn't even explain to Ned, the man he loved more than either of his actual brothers why he didn't give it to Stannis because like several other things he doesn't have a reason

the irony is that both Ned and Robert have /had brothers like the other and Ned liked and loved Brandon whereas Robert dislikes even hates Stannis

Robert doesn't hate Stannis. They're just entirely different people, complete chalk and cheese. Stannis doesn't get on with Robert either. Finding each other inordinately annoying (for different, but equally valid, reasons) doesn't mean they hate each other. It's just life and/or family.

He doesn't give the Handship to Stannis probably because it didn't even occur to him to do so, and that's entirely justified because Stannis would have been a terrible Hand to Robert. The only person who thought Stannis was in with a chance of getting the job or would be any good at it was Stannis himself. Ned was actually the right choice: the problem was that it was too little too late and the Lannister plot was already too advanced.

Ned and Stannis are not that similar. They share traits but Ned is a much warmer and more reasonable person than Stannis. Stannis does also develop over the course of the books. The Stannis we get to know at the Wall is not the same as the Stannis who declared himself king and that improvement is largely down to his defeat at the Blackwater and ensuing events.

Quote

its a terrible idea, Jaime is a passable army commander but has no skill that we know of with fleets, Stannis is brillant at both

On what basis can we claim Stannis as a "brilliant" commander with either armies or ships? His record is decidedly mixed. He had a major success against the Greyjoys, but his attack on King's Landing was a disaster. His march on Winterfell is a logistical nightmare and a complete gamble that has yet to pay off.

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30 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

His march on Winterfell is a logistical nightmare and a complete gamble that has yet to pay off.

I can't help but feel that even if he defeats the Freys and Boltons and takes the Castle, his army will soon starve more than they already are. Taking Winterfell will not be much help as the food supplies inside the castle are dwindling as well.

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3 hours ago, Adelstein said:

Robert doesn't hate Stannis. They're just entirely different people, complete chalk and cheese. Stannis doesn't get on with Robert either. Finding each other inordinately annoying (for different, but equally valid, reasons) doesn't mean they hate each other. It's just life and/or family.

He doesn't give the Handship to Stannis probably because it didn't even occur to him to do so, and that's entirely justified because Stannis would have been a terrible Hand to Robert. The only person who thought Stannis was in with a chance of getting the job or would be any good at it was Stannis himself. Ned was actually the right choice: the problem was that it was too little too late and the Lannister plot was already too advanced.

Ned and Stannis are not that similar. They share traits but Ned is a much warmer and more reasonable person than Stannis. Stannis does also develop over the course of the books. The Stannis we get to know at the Wall is not the same as the Stannis who declared himself king and that improvement is largely down to his defeat at the Blackwater and ensuing events.

On what basis can we claim Stannis as a "brilliant" commander with either armies or ships? His record is decidedly mixed. He had a major success against the Greyjoys, but his attack on King's Landing was a disaster. His march on Winterfell is a logistical nightmare and a complete gamble that has yet to pay off.

I disagree, Stannis would do the job very well if Robert trusted him enough to give it to him and he accepted because firstly that means Robert respects him and agrees in principal to listen to his advice and secondly because Stannis knows more than Ned Stark did before Roberts death, if Robert still dies then Stannis would not make the mistake of trusting Littlefinger.

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4 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I disagree, Stannis would do the job very well if Robert trusted him enough to give it to him and he accepted because firstly that means Robert respects him and agrees in principal to listen to his advice and secondly because Stannis knows more than Ned Stark did before Roberts death, if Robert still dies then Stannis would not make the mistake of trusting Littlefinger.

Stannis has already tried to implement unpopular and pointless policies like banning prostitution to try and make people conform to his puritanical standards. I don't think that bodes particularly well for his time as Hand. The Hand needs to be able to negotiate. People would be unhappy if Stannis tried to make similar decisions as Hand and would probably try to bypass him and go straight to Robert.

Stannis might initially do a few good things like get rid of Varys and Littlefinger and reduce corruption in court, but ultimately I think he'd prove unpopular enough that he would be replaced. Almost no one likes him. By comparison, people like or at least accept Ned's rulings.

Not to mention that if Stannis is endorsing or associating with Melisandre at this point people won't like it.

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1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis has already tried to implement unpopular and pointless policies like banning prostitution to try and make people conform to his puritanical standards. I don't think that bodes particularly well for his time as Hand. The Hand needs to be able to negotiate. People would be unhappy if Stannis tried to make similar decisions as Hand and would probably try to bypass him and go straight to Robert.

Stannis might initially do a few good things like get rid of Varys and Littlefinger and reduce corruption in court, but ultimately I think he'd prove unpopular enough that he would be replaced. Almost no one likes him. By comparison, people like or at least accept Ned's rulings.

Not to mention that if Stannis is endorsing or associating with Melisandre at this point people won't like it.

Stannis might become less popular but theres a good chance he stays Hand enough for this to happen whereas Ned doesn't

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On 11/25/2022 at 6:04 PM, BoltonBannerMan said:

This surprised me while I was rereading the first book - I forgot about it completely. I guess it was just Robert being Robert? Doing stuff without thinking. Can Jamie even hold that title since he's member of King's Guard? 

We don't know, since its an honour not a title its possible but still a really stupid thing for him to do

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On 11/24/2022 at 3:33 PM, Alden Rothack said:

Stannis might become less popular but theres a good chance he stays Hand enough for this to happen whereas Ned doesn't

Or Cersei accelerates her plans and has him and/or Robert killed. Stannis was vulnerable to exactly the same play that Ned fell victim to, and because he already knows Cersei's secret she has more incentive to move quickly.

The main reason I say Stannis would be a terrible hand is, firstly, that the Handship is essentially a political position. Politics requires pragmatism, diplomacy and compromise and Stannis is, at this stage in his character development, incapable of any of that.

When Ned becomes Hand, he sets about trying to establish alliances with powerful figures, "managing" Robert while keeping him out of the way. Unfortunately, he trusts the wrong people and ends up dead. But at least he's heading in the right direction and does so reasonably quickly, considering he's not in KL for any real length of time. Stannis has been at KL for years and yet has managed to cultivate no following at all; indeed he's only managed to alienate the court, to the point where when Ned tells the other councillors Stannis is the rightful king, all of them try to talk Ned out of it.

But also, the Hand needs to have a workable relationship with the king. The Hand has to be someone the king can confide in, someone he can talk to openly and someone who can advise the king without the king feeling like he's being hectored. Robert has that sort of relationship with Jon Arryn, his old mentor. He has that sort of relationship with Ned, his best mate. He doesn't have it with Stannis, and it's hard to imagine their ever having one.

In some ways, Stannis's lack of self-awareness in believing that he should have been Robert's Hand demonstrates precisely why he shouldn't have been.

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21 hours ago, Adelstein said:

Or Cersei accelerates her plans and has him and/or Robert killed. Stannis was vulnerable to exactly the same play that Ned fell victim to, and because he already knows Cersei's secret she has more incentive to move quickly.

The main reason I say Stannis would be a terrible hand is, firstly, that the Handship is essentially a political position. Politics requires pragmatism, diplomacy and compromise and Stannis is, at this stage in his character development, incapable of any of that.

When Ned becomes Hand, he sets about trying to establish alliances with powerful figures, "managing" Robert while keeping him out of the way. Unfortunately, he trusts the wrong people and ends up dead. But at least he's heading in the right direction and does so reasonably quickly, considering he's not in KL for any real length of time. Stannis has been at KL for years and yet has managed to cultivate no following at all; indeed he's only managed to alienate the court, to the point where when Ned tells the other councillors Stannis is the rightful king, all of them try to talk Ned out of it.

But also, the Hand needs to have a workable relationship with the king. The Hand has to be someone the king can confide in, someone he can talk to openly and someone who can advise the king without the king feeling like he's being hectored. Robert has that sort of relationship with Jon Arryn, his old mentor. He has that sort of relationship with Ned, his best mate. He doesn't have it with Stannis, and it's hard to imagine their ever having one.

In some ways, Stannis's lack of self-awareness in believing that he should have been Robert's Hand demonstrates precisely why he shouldn't have been.

Except he fails at both getting alliances and getting robert to do anything useful, the one thing he knows that Robert would do something meaningful about he never tells him

Stannis dislike the small council because unlike Ned he already understands what sort of people they are and believes that most of them should have beheaded years ago, hes also even more right than he knows given what Baelish and Varys would do later

Stannis wasn't hand because Robert didn't trust him, if he makes him hand then he would be able to do properly

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On 11/25/2022 at 7:04 PM, BoltonBannerMan said:

Can Jamie even hold that title since he's member of King's Guard? 

Of course he can. We have already seen lord commanders of the Kingsguard such as Ryam Redwyne or Criston Cole becoming Hand of the King. Being appointed to what is essentially a military position wouldn't be an issue at all.

On 11/24/2022 at 4:20 PM, Alden Rothack said:

and secondly because Stannis knows more than Ned Stark did before Roberts death

And the fact that Stannis didn't share this crucial knowledge with his brother, Ned, or anyone else is the clearest indicatior that he is not to be trusted. Not as a Hand, not as a brother, and not even as a bannerman.

7 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Except he fails at both getting alliances and getting robert to do anything useful

Only two months passed between Eddard's arrival at King's Landing and his imprisonment, and a great part of this time he is in bed or incapacitated because of his wounded leg. During this time he managed to discover the secret behind Cersei's kids, confronted the king on the ethics of murdering children, and was really close to succeed in defeating the Lannisters.

Because let's not forget that Cersei only prevailed because of sheer luck. Her mad desperate plan of asking an unreliable teenager to give the king a lot of wine, hoping that this would lead to the king being gored by a boar would only work one time out of a million.

Eddard served his king much better in his two months as Hand than Stannis during more than a decade as Master of Ships.

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7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Of course he can. We have already seen lord commanders of the Kingsguard such as Ryam Redwyne or Criston Cole becoming Hand of the King. Being appointed to what is essentially a military position wouldn't be an issue at all.

And the fact that Stannis didn't share this crucial knowledge with his brother, Ned, or anyone else is the clearest indicatior that he is not to be trusted. Not as a Hand, not as a brother, and not even as a bannerman.

Only two months passed between Eddard's arrival at King's Landing and his imprisonment, and a great part of this time he is in bed or incapacitated because of his wounded leg. During this time he managed to discover the secret behind Cersei's kids, confronted the king on the ethics of murdering children, and was really close to succeed in defeating the Lannisters.

Because let's not forget that Cersei only prevailed because of sheer luck. Her mad desperate plan of asking an unreliable teenager to give the king a lot of wine, hoping that this would lead to the king being gored by a boar would only work one time out of a million.

Eddard served his king much better in his two months as Hand than Stannis during more than a decade as Master of Ships.

Except it wasn't luck, Ned warning her and trusting Littlefinger made it certain he would fail, her plan to kill Robert by boar was one of the smartest things shes ever done, boars were dangerous enough that the typical method was hurting them from horseback with specialised boar spears, the fact hes managed to not get killed without being more drunk than expected is a sign of how much skill and fortutude the fat king still has

Ned confronting Robert was a disaster which nearly got him killed, you are however correct on one point he could still have defeated the lannisters if he told Robert the truth before the boar incident

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On 12/2/2022 at 6:56 AM, Alden Rothack said:

Except it wasn't luck, Ned warning her and trusting Littlefinger made it certain he would fail, her plan to kill Robert by boar was one of the smartest things shes ever done, boars were dangerous enough that the typical method was hurting them from horseback with specialised boar spears, the fact hes managed to not get killed without being more drunk than expected is a sign of how much skill and fortutude the fat king still has

Ned confronting Robert was a disaster which nearly got him killed, you are however correct on one point he could still have defeated the lannisters if he told Robert the truth before the boar incident

The timeline here is all wonky. Robert leaves for boar-hunting before Ned discovers the truth about Cersei's kids. He then tells Cersei to be gone by the time Robert gets back. Robert is mortally wounded on the boar hunt and is dying by the time he returns.

So there was no prospect of Ned telling Robert before he left. Ned's telling Cersei that he knew also probably didn't affect her plan. She must have given Lancel the strong wine before Robert left. Note that there was already a ploy to kill Robert out there: the intention had been to kill him in the melee at the Hand's tournament. Cersei's hit on Robert wasn't prompted by Ned. Now, Ned might have saved Robert by sending an urgent message telling him to return to KL immediately, but that assumes that he knows Robert is in immediate danger. Surrounded for once by his own men, Renly and the Kingsguard, there's no particular reason to believe Robert is in imminent danger of death, whatever Ned's concerns about Lancel.

Cersei's plan was basically to get Robert drunk and hope that he screwed up and a boar got him. It's a pretty half-arsed assassination plot, at best 50-50. Hardly the kind of calculated ploy the Tyrells pull on Joff. The one thing Cersei's plan does have going for it is a lack of accountability, as it's going to be hard to trace back to her.

The "your mercy killed the king" line is just a cool line, with Varys trying to get Ned to feel guilty and go along with his plan. It shouldn't be taken as gospel.

On the boar hunting, is boar hunting in Westeros confirmed to be done differently to in real life? Because real-life boar-hunting in the analogous period was generally done on foot. You get dogs to hold the boar at bay, then when it charges, you stab it with your boar-spear (the design is to stop the boar from running up the shaft and gouging you anyway, and to stop the spear from penetrating too deeply so that you can withdraw it for a second stab if necessary). Pigsticking - chasing boar from horseback - did develop elsewhere and become popular later, but that was in different terrain: pursuing a boar at speed on horseback in a forest would if anything be more dangerous than going after it on foot.

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9 hours ago, Adelstein said:

The timeline here is all wonky. Robert leaves for boar-hunting before Ned discovers the truth about Cersei's kids. He then tells Cersei to be gone by the time Robert gets back. Robert is mortally wounded on the boar hunt and is dying by the time he returns.

So there was no prospect of Ned telling Robert before he left. Ned's telling Cersei that he knew also probably didn't affect her plan. She must have given Lancel the strong wine before Robert left. Note that there was already a ploy to kill Robert out there: the intention had been to kill him in the melee at the Hand's tournament. Cersei's hit on Robert wasn't prompted by Ned. Now, Ned might have saved Robert by sending an urgent message telling him to return to KL immediately, but that assumes that he knows Robert is in immediate danger. Surrounded for once by his own men, Renly and the Kingsguard, there's no particular reason to believe Robert is in imminent danger of death, whatever Ned's concerns about Lancel.

Cersei's plan was basically to get Robert drunk and hope that he screwed up and a boar got him. It's a pretty half-arsed assassination plot, at best 50-50. Hardly the kind of calculated ploy the Tyrells pull on Joff. The one thing Cersei's plan does have going for it is a lack of accountability, as it's going to be hard to trace back to her.

The "your mercy killed the king" line is just a cool line, with Varys trying to get Ned to feel guilty and go along with his plan. It shouldn't be taken as gospel.

On the boar hunting, is boar hunting in Westeros confirmed to be done differently to in real life? Because real-life boar-hunting in the analogous period was generally done on foot. You get dogs to hold the boar at bay, then when it charges, you stab it with your boar-spear (the design is to stop the boar from running up the shaft and gouging you anyway, and to stop the spear from penetrating too deeply so that you can withdraw it for a second stab if necessary). Pigsticking - chasing boar from horseback - did develop elsewhere and become popular later, but that was in different terrain: pursuing a boar at speed on horseback in a forest would if anything be more dangerous than going after it on foot.

Ned should have warned him or even better gone out to him and told him immediately, however your right it wasn't a particlarly good plan just one of if not the smartest things cersei ever did

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