Why did Robert name Jaime as warden of the East?

[oldbus]

To return to the original topic, I think the thing about the Wardens is a hangover back to GRRM being inspired by the Wars of the Roses.  Having recently read a book about those Ward you can see some parallels especially with the original book - though you can't match chacters and historial people one-to-one; they overlap and shift as GRRM tells his story.

The Wardens of the West and East in fifteenth century England were important in the defnce of northern England from the Scots.  Similar to the Wardens of the Marches (of Wales), though possibly with less powers.  The title was actually a job (not a landed lordship or a chivalric honour such as a knight of the Garter) and the holder was responsible to the king and received money to help recruit people to defned against border raids.  This gave the holder extra power within the realm.  Ideally the king would therefore pick someone trustworthy and capable.  in practice, Warden of the East often went to the earl of Northumberland (whose power base was on the east side of the border).

At one stage in the Wars of the Roses, Richard Neville, earl of Warwick, is given both the Wardenship of East and West in return for loyalty (his nickname, Kingmaker, contrasts very nicley with Kingslayer, though Warwick and Jaime Lannister and not really alike in other ways).  This gave Warwick a lot of power and annoyed the great northern family, the Percies, who traditionally held the Warden of the East as earls of Northumberland.

The problem for ASoIaF is that the land holding in Westeros (senior lords controlling a large contiguous area of land with subordinates holding land within that area) seems a lot closer to the continental maodel, rather than England.  This means that there is no real need for Wardens as the Lords Paramount can call upon the loyalty of all lower-ranked lords within their area to fight an external threat.  This was not true in England with many scattered holdings (a lot of nobles, depite holding a title indicating a particular area often had holding across the kingdom and all peerages were held direct form the king).  Also, Wardens like Jaime who were 'outsiders', couldn't really exploit that power for a civil war.

In summary, that i why I think the issue of the Wardens appeared in AGoT and why it disappeared very quickly.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:08 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I think this is one of the weird things in the first book.

Apparently, the title of Warden was originally supposed to be much more meaningful than it ended up being.

[Corvo the Crow]

To spite Stannis, his dutiful brother.

[Alden Rothack]

5 hours ago, oldbus said:

To return to the original topic, I think the thing about the Wardens is a hangover back to GRRM being inspired by the Wars of the Roses.  Having recently read a book about those Ward you can see some parallels especially with the original book - though you can't match chacters and historial people one-to-one; they overlap and shift as GRRM tells his story.

The Wardens of the West and East in fifteenth century England were important in the defnce of northern England from the Scots.  Similar to the Wardens of the Marches (of Wales), though possibly with less powers.  The title was actually a job (not a landed lordship or a chivalric honour such as a knight of the Garter) and the holder was responsible to the king and received money to help recruit people to defned against border raids.  This gave the holder extra power within the realm.  Ideally the king would therefore pick someone trustworthy and capable.  in practice, Warden of the East often went to the earl of Northumberland (whose power base was on the east side of the border).

At one stage in the Wars of the Roses, Richard Neville, earl of Warwick, is given both the Wardenship of East and West in return for loyalty (his nickname, Kingmaker, contrasts very nicley with Kingslayer, though Warwick and Jaime Lannister and not really alike in other ways).  This gave Warwick a lot of power and annoyed the great northern family, the Percies, who traditionally held the Warden of the East as earls of Northumberland.

The problem for ASoIaF is that the land holding in Westeros (senior lords controlling a large contiguous area of land with subordinates holding land within that area) seems a lot closer to the continental maodel, rather than England.  This means that there is no real need for Wardens as the Lords Paramount can call upon the loyalty of all lower-ranked lords within their area to fight an external threat.  This was not true in England with many scattered holdings (a lot of nobles, depite holding a title indicating a particular area often had holding across the kingdom and all peerages were held direct form the king).  Also, Wardens like Jaime who were 'outsiders', couldn't really exploit that power for a civil war.

In summary, that i why I think the issue of the Wardens appeared in AGoT and why it disappeared very quickly.

Yes, the title in england was because they often ended up having to command other earls which was extremely difficult even with royal favour

In Westeros however even the lords of the least powerful Region are comparable to kings

[frenin]

On 12/19/2022 at 5:38 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

To spite Stannis, his dutiful brother.

Robert doesn't care about Stannis, not even to spite him.

 

On 12/19/2022 at 5:36 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Apparently, the title of Warden was originally supposed to be much more meaningful than it ended up being.

Agree. They ended up being just a courtesy, still don't know why take it from Robyn tho. The regent of the Eyrie would command the troops of the Vale anyway.

[Alden Rothack]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert doesn't care about Stannis, not even to spite him.

 

Agree. They ended up being just a courtesy, still don't know why take it from Robyn tho. The regent of the Eyrie would command the troops of the Vale anyway.

Which is who exactly?

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Which is who exactly?

Lysa. The Vale lords would never obey to a Lannister or Stannis or whomever regardless so.

[Alden Rothack]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Lysa. The Vale lords would never obey to a Lannister or Stannis or whomever regardless so.

who isn't capable of being regency or warden

if Robert actually cared he would have made Lord Royce steward of the vale and warden of the east not jaime

 

[frenin]

20 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

who isn't capable of being regency or warden

if Robert actually cared he would have made Lord Royce steward of the vale and warden of the east not jaime

 

The regents are almost always the most immediate relatives.

 

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

The regents are almost always the most immediate relatives.

 

the rule where there is one is that the next applicable relative is the regent

Lisa is not suitably for the office,

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 hours ago, frenin said:

Agree. They ended up being just a courtesy, still don't know why take it from Robyn tho. The regent of the Eyrie would command the troops of the Vale anyway.

Jaime was originally supposed to usurp the throne for himself, and being warden of the East would probably play a role in that somehow.

[James Arryn]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:36 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Apparently, the title of Warden was originally supposed to be much more meaningful than it ended up being.

It’d be interesting to see an evolution as per Shogun or Mayor of the Palace, ie going from ~ ceremonial title clearly subordinate to the anointed ruler and becoming the true ruler while ceremonially paying homage to the nominally anointed ruler. You could do the same with Hand, but that’s imo too consistently close to actual power. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by James Arryn