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Did Tywin really didn't intend Elia to die or is he lying ?


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When confronted by Tyrion about Elia Martell's death, Tywin claimed that he had no responsability in it as he blamed Gregor Clegane for her horrific rape and death, saying that he just hadn't told anything about Elia. 

Oberyn, on the other hand evidently believes that it's a weak lie, and that Tywin did order his sister's death for having dared to marry Rhaegar Targaryen instead of Cersei after everything Tywin did to get this royal marriage.  

Who do you think is right ? Do you think that Tywin really didn't tell anything about Elia to his men, or did he order her death as Oberyn said ? 

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Lying. He wouldn’t have sent the Mountain otherwise. He doesn’t even need to give orders to him, sending Mountain in the first place is essentially a near guarantee of such things.
 

Aerys gravely insulted Tywin with the Elia marriage. Especially considering Aerys’ dislike of the Dornish(“she smells Dornish” for example).

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Of course he knew. But I'm going to be on team Tywin here for a second. I really have a hard time believing Robert would have just shipped the beloved children of Rhaegar across the narrow sea fully knowing they'll come back in the future. Tywin ordered the mountain to do so as he knew that what Robert would want and need. Ned could make his protests but bottom line there was no way they would have kept their heads.

At best they would have been kept as prisoners to keep Dorne nice and happy. But then what? Aegon would have turned 16 at one point, Robert couldn't force him to take the black or something.

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1 hour ago, hnv said:

Of course he knew. But I'm going to be on team Tywin here for a second. I really have a hard time believing Robert would have just shipped the beloved children of Rhaegar across the narrow sea fully knowing they'll come back in the future. Tywin ordered the mountain to do so as he knew that what Robert would want and need. Ned could make his protests but bottom line there was no way they would have kept their heads.

At best they would have been kept as prisoners to keep Dorne nice and happy. But then what? Aegon would have turned 16 at one point, Robert couldn't force him to take the black or something.

Just send Aegon to The Wall, problem solved. A king can do whatever he wants.

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1 hour ago, hnv said:

 

At best they would have been kept as prisoners to keep Dorne nice and happy. But then what? Aegon would have turned 16 at one point, Robert couldn't force him to take the black or something.

What are you talking about? Nymeria sent several kings to the Wall in golden chains. People get condemned to the Wall as punishment all the time. Hell, Aegon II was ready to send his nephew to the Wall BEFORE he came of age.

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Just now, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Also Mance Rayder was taken in by the Night's Watch as a baby. 

I don't think they would have refused Aegon either.

Wow, I forgot about that example. Tywin really was even more full of shit than I thought. It would have been so easy to deal with Rhaegar’s kids without killing them. 

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10 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

What are you talking about? Nymeria sent several kings to the Wall in golden chains. People get condemned to the Wall as punishment all the time. Hell, Aegon II was ready to send his nephew to the Wall BEFORE he came of age.

You can't force anyone to take the black unless he's a criminal. Especially not a boy who can't take his vows. And shipping Aegon out of sight would have allowed any number of lords or people with interest to try smuggling him.

And what about his sister? She can't take the black.

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2 minutes ago, hnv said:

You can't force anyone to take the black unless he's a criminal. Especially not a boy who can't take his vows. And shipping Aegon out of sight would have allowed any number of lords or people with interest to try smuggling him.

Losing parties of wars get sent to the Wall routinely and their only crime is having lost the war and children have already sent to the Wall before.

Not that i see your last point... Bring an strong contigent to carry Aegon.

 

4 minutes ago, hnv said:

And what about his sister? She can't take the black.

Silent sisters.

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3 minutes ago, hnv said:

You can't force anyone to take the black unless he's a criminal. Especially not a boy who can't take his vows. And shipping Aegon out of sight would have allowed any number of lords or people with interest to try smuggling him.

And what about his sister? She can't take the black.

Well Janos Slynt was forced by Tyrion to take the black, and many did the same with their prisonners of war or political opponents. 

Mance Rayder didn't have much of a choice either, having been taken by the Watch after his parents' death and raised by them. 

As for Rhaenys she could have been sent to the Silent Sisters. It's another practice to get rid of people.

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10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Losing parties of wars get sent to the Wall routinely and their only crime is having lost the war and children have already sent to the Wall before.

Not that i see your last point... Bring an strong contigent to carry Aegon.

 

Silent sisters.

 

8 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Well Janos Slynt was forced by Tyrion to take the black, and many did the same with their prisonners of war or political opponents. 

Mance Rayder didn't have much of a choice either, having been taken by the Watch after his parents' death and raised by them. 

As for Rhaenys she could have been sent to the Silent Sisters. It's another practice to get rid of people.

Janos Slynt were sent as a punishment. Aegon was a baby, he couldn't face trial.

Now suppose he is sent to the wall, that's a big if as we assume neither Dorne or the Reach would declare for him and carry on the war - and remember the Tyrells bent the knee only after Aegon died and Viserys fled - the years go by and when he's 15 he simply tell the lord commander he doesn't want to take the vows and he's off. The LC can't force him to stay.

Mance stayed as he was an orphan wildling boy. Aegon would have two score big lords happy to bring him in.

 

This situation was untenable to begin with. If Aegon lives I can't see Robert's Rebellion ending by taking KL. Robert would have had a massive problem of legitimacy. Aegon isn't Aerys, or even Viserys, he's the child of the much beloved Rhaegar and nephew to the prince of Dorne.

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1 minute ago, hnv said:

 

Janos Slynt were sent as a punishment. Aegon was a baby, he couldn't face trial.

Now suppose he is sent to the wall, that's a big if as we assume neither Dorne or the Reach would declare for him and carry on the war - and remember the Tyrells bent the knee only after Aegon died and Viserys fled - the years go by and when he's 15 he simply tell the lord commander he doesn't want to take the vows and he's off. The LC can't force him to stay.

Mance stayed as he was an orphan wildling boy. Aegon would have two score big lords happy to bring him in.

 

This situation was untenable to begin with. If Aegon lives I can't see Robert's Rebellion ending by taking KL. Robert would have had a massive problem of legitimacy. Aegon isn't Aerys, or even Viserys, he's the child of the much beloved Rhaegar and nephew to the prince of Dorne.

Slynt and many others didn't even face a trial either. For them it was the Wall or the sword on the neck. Mance was most likely not given much of a choice either. 

And I don't think that Mace Tyrell would have been willing to declare for Aegon without the right circumstances, nor that he was much of a true loyal supporter to the Targaryens, he did the minimum to help them and oppose Robert and lifted the siege of Storm's End very easily when Ned Stark arrived. He would most likely have bent the knee to Robert anyway. 

And Dorne couldn't hope to restore Aegon on its own, and it would have been difficult to get Aegon from the Night's Watch anyway.

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1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Slynt and many others didn't even face a trial either. For them it was the Wall or the sword on the neck. Mance was most likely not given much of a choice either. 

And I don't think that Mace Tyrell would have been willing to declare for Aegon without the right circumstances, nor that he was much of a true loyal supporter to the Targaryens, he did the minimum to help them and oppose Robert and lifted the siege of Storm's End very easily when Ned Stark arrived. He would most likely have bent the knee to Robert anyway. 

And Dorne couldn't hope to restore Aegon on its own, and it would have been difficult to get Aegon from the Night's Watch anyway.

Janos was culpable. It's a beheading\trial or the wall. Aegon was a baby hardly analogues. 

Dorne would simply threaten to continue the war if Robert sent Aegon to the wall. They would probably demand him transferred to them and then bend the knee. At some point they might try to wed him to Marg. etc. etc.

a living Aegon is a constant threat to both Robert and his line. Even if Robert managed to keep everyone at bay when he lives like a warlord when he dies half the kingdom tries to restore Aegon on the spot.

The only one who could logically think a live Aegon is tenable would be Ned and he was a political moron.

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15 minutes ago, hnv said:

Janos Slynt were sent as a punishment.

Yes.

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

Aegon was a baby, he couldn't face trial.

So what? Mance was a baby too. 

 

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

Now suppose he is sent to the wall, that's a big if as we assume neither Dorne or the Reach would declare for him and carry on the war

They would need to go north to look for him.

 

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

and remember the Tyrells bent the knee only after Aegon died and Viserys fled - the years go by and when he's 15 he simply tell the lord commander he doesn't want to take the vows and he's off.

He's going to be forced to take those oaths, or he is going to lose his life.

And he does not need to take the vows when he's 15, when he's 7,8,9, 10 he can take those vows or even before.

 

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

The LC can't force him to stay.

I wonder how the losing parties of the several wars stayed then.

Oh, because it was always something like this.

 

Quote

"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."
"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."

The Wall is a penal colony and few go to a penal colony voluntarily.

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

Aegon would have two score big lords happy to bring him in.

From Stark's stronghold? Aegon will never live to see those scores of big lords.

 

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

This situation was untenable to begin with.

Eh, it really wasn't.

 

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

This situation was untenable to begin with. If Aegon lives I can't see Robert's Rebellion ending by taking KL. Robert would have had a massive problem of legitimacy.

Robert was crowned while Viserys, Rhaella despaired in Dragonstone, waiting for loyalists who had already given up on them.

 

15 minutes ago, hnv said:

he's the child of the much beloved Rhaegar and nephew to the prince of Dorne.

And a toddler and in the hands of the rebels. The Robellion would have ended.

 

Quote

Dorne would simply threaten to continue the war if Robert sent Aegon to the wall. They would probably demand him transferred to them and then bend the knee. At some point they might try to wed him to Marg. etc. etc.

It is a suicidal proposal, in case of a rebel win for Aegon the only outcome was the Wall or the Hangman, the rebels would never let him free. Doran knows that.  Aegon's fate was sealed, they could fight for him and lose or they could accept things as they were... We know what Doran does so..

 

To OP, I very much doubt that Tywin thought that Gregor was the sort of a man that would brutally  murder infants but not rape and kill the infant mother. 

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15 minutes ago, hnv said:

Janos was culpable. It's a beheading\trial or the wall. Aegon was a baby hardly analogues. 

Dorne would simply threaten to continue the war if Robert sent Aegon to the wall. They would probably demand him transferred to them and then bend the knee. At some point they might try to wed him to Marg. etc. etc.

a living Aegon is a constant threat to both Robert and his line. Even if Robert managed to keep everyone at bay when he lives like a warlord when he dies half the kingdom tries to restore Aegon on the spot.

The only one who could logically think a live Aegon is tenable would be Ned and he was a political moron.

He was culpable but still didn't get a fair trial, and many of those sent to the wall didn't even get a trial or went sent just for having bern soldiers in the losing side of a conflict. 

And Dorne didn't really had the power to ask for Aegon to be transferred to them, nor to continue the war indefinitively if the other kingdoms didn't invade.

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3 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

When confronted by Tyrion about Elia Martell's death, Tywin claimed that he had no responsability in it as he blamed Gregor Clegane for her horrific rape and death, saying that he just hadn't told anything about Elia. 

Oberyn, on the other hand evidently believes that it's a weak lie, and that Tywin did order his sister's death for having dared to marry Rhaegar Targaryen instead of Cersei after everything Tywin did to get this royal marriage.  

Who do you think is right ? Do you think that Tywin really didn't tell anything about Elia to his men, or did he order her death as Oberyn said ? 

Oberyn's right . Tywin may not have verbalized his desire to have Elia killed . but he definitely wanted her dead . the man sent  the Mountain (a sociopath with certain rumors from his household )to deal with her. and he didn't think he kills her?! give me a break! I mean , he may have been shocked by the sight of the atrocities afterwards , but that's about it . besides, I dare say Elia's rape stinks of Tywin's involvement . just look at the treatment of other women who dared disrespect Tywin . even the Mountain (and at the age of 17 at that) knows enough not to rape a royal princess without support and blessing of his liege lord  .

2 hours ago, hnv said:

At best they would have been kept as prisoners to keep Dorne nice and happy. But then what? Aegon would have turned 16 at one point, Robert couldn't force him to take the black or something.

at worst? Aegon would have been castrated and sent to the wall  , while Rhaenys would have been made a silent sister . 

at best ? Aegon would have had the options of kingsgaurd(if Robert had raised him like his own) , the Wall and the Citadel , while Rhaenys would have been betrothed to Robert's heir , giving Baratheon reign even more legitimacy for any Targ loyalist who doubted it . 

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And I agree with @frenin, I strongly doubt that Tywin hadn't heard about Gregor Clegane and Armory Loch's more than a little vicious side. 

If he really wanted for Elia's children to get the cleanest and least brutal death possible and for Elia to not be touched there were many other knights or other men he could have sent to do the job instead of these two monsters. 

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Yes the mountain is brutal but hes an attack dog  for tywin..

3 factors = Tywin had always eyed getting his family married into the royals , he had been personaly insulted by the choice of the dornish queen over his little girl and finaly once he commited to the rebellions cause he was probably well aware of the known character of ned stark,robert and jon arryn ......all reportedly deeply honourable men and thus all lacking the cold ruthlessness of what needed to be done to wipe out the targ threat!!!

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