Dawn

[_Bittersteel_]

Tinfoil theory here. We know Dawn is forged from a “fallen star”. But the fallen star is the same black stone that Ying, Asshai, and the base of the Hightower is made from. But it was “purified” in the forging of Lightbringer by Nissa Anissa’s love and sacrifice.

[Aebram]

An interesting speculation, but I don't think we have any evidence for it.

We don't know what was the original color of the meteorite from which Dawn was made.  But considering that the sword is unusually light in color, it seems unlikely that it was made from a black raw material, although it's certainly possible.

More importantly, the mysterious black stone was used to build large structures in a number of places throughout the Known World.  It seems unlikely that those structures are all made from meteorite material.

[_Bittersteel_]

10 minutes ago, Aebram said:

An interesting speculation, but I don't think we have any evidence for it.

We don't know what was the original color of the meteorite from which Dawn was made.  But considering that the sword is unusually light in color, it seems unlikely that it was made from a black raw material, although it's certainly possible.

More importantly, the mysterious black stone was used to build large structures in a number of places throughout the Known World.  It seems unlikely that those structures are all made from meteorite material.

David Lightbringer, on YouTube, has a theory that the Blood Betrayal/Lightbringer being forged was one in the same event. And that the act that started the Long Night was in fact Planetos’ second moon cracking into pieces letting out “a thousand thousand dragons” (moon debris) and that the moon debris falling to Planetos caused the long night from the dust it created. Said debris also shattered the Arm of Dorne and the Neck according to said theory.

[Gilbert Green]

11 hours ago, _Bittersteel_ said:

Tinfoil theory here. We know Dawn is forged from a “fallen star”. But the fallen star is the same black stone that Ying, Asshai, and the base of the Hightower is made from. But it was “purified” in the forging of Lightbringer by Nissa Anissa’s love and sacrifice.

Dawn is a milky white sword.  Lightbringer is a red sword.

The tale of Lightbringer is a sinister tale of dark magic and human sacrifice. 

I believe and hope that Dawn represents something more wholesome.

[Aebram]

5 hours ago, _Bittersteel_ said:

David Lightbringer, on YouTube, has a theory that the Blood Betrayal/Lightbringer being forged was one in the same event. And that the act that started the Long Night was in fact Planetos’ second moon cracking into pieces letting out “a thousand thousand dragons” (moon debris) and that the moon debris falling to Planetos caused the long night from the dust it created. Said debris also shattered the Arm of Dorne and the Neck according to said theory.

Hmmm, that does have a certain logic to it, although anything based on ancient legends is tentative.

Can you give us a link to the video?  I looked at his channel, but he has a lot of videos, including several with titles related to this topic.

[_Bittersteel_]

14 hours ago, Aebram said:

Hmmm, that does have a certain logic to it, although anything based on ancient legends is tentative.

Can you give us a link to the video?  I looked at his channel, but he has a lot of videos, including several with titles related to this topic.

 

I believe this was it. I listen to a lot of his videos while I work, so it could be a lot of them from this playlist

[Craving Peaches]

I love all this stuff but I don't know how much of it will be explicitly in the books.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 11/21/2022 at 6:25 AM, _Bittersteel_ said:

Tinfoil theory here. We know Dawn is forged from a “fallen star”. But the fallen star is the same black stone that Ying, Asshai, and the base of the Hightower is made from. But it was “purified” in the forging of Lightbringer by Nissa Anissa’s love and sacrifice.

The only other thing to glow similarly is the Weirwood door in the Wall

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

 

[sifth]

At this point, I just hope Dawn shows up in the story and not in a half assed way like
"Long Claw, was Dawn all along".

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, sifth said:

At this point, I just hope Dawn shows up in the story and not in a half assed way like
"Long Claw, was Dawn all along".

The real Dawn is the friends we made along the way.

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:25 AM, _Bittersteel_ said:

Tinfoil theory here. We know Dawn is forged from a “fallen star”. But the fallen star is the same black stone that Ying, Asshai, and the base of the Hightower is made from. But it was “purified” in the forging of Lightbringer by Nissa Anissa’s love and sacrifice.

Or it could be an opposite meteor. A white stone meteor. 

[Ring3r]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:25 AM, _Bittersteel_ said:

Tinfoil theory here. We know Dawn is forged from a “fallen star”. But the fallen star is the same black stone that Ying, Asshai, and the base of the Hightower is made from. But it was “purified” in the forging of Lightbringer by Nissa Anissa’s love and sacrifice.

I've theorized similarly.  Dawn has all the properties of Valyrian steel, but the wrong color.  Valyrian steel drinks sunlight, but Dawn appears to do the opposite.
 

I think Dawn was the original successful forging.  Nissa Nissa gave her life willingly, under whatever circumstances, and that willing sacrifice gave the blade a pure, bright hue.  Later mass-produced swords relied on slave-sacrifice...unwilling....and while the magic was still effective, it resulted in dark blades which drain light.

[Gilbert Green]

57 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

I've theorized similarly.  Dawn has all the properties of Valyrian steel, but the wrong color.  Valyrian steel drinks sunlight, but Dawn appears to do the opposite.
 

I think Dawn was the original successful forging.  Nissa Nissa gave her life willingly, under whatever circumstances, and that willing sacrifice gave the blade a pure, bright hue.  Later mass-produced swords relied on slave-sacrifice...unwilling....and while the magic was still effective, it resulted in dark blades which drain light.

I just don't get it.  Dawn is a milky-white sword forged from meteoric iron.  It's special qualities came down from the stars.  It's milky white appearance is inspired by real-world blades.  Lightbringer is a fiery red sword forged using blood magic and human sacrifice.  It iron has no special source, and its special qualities come from the soul of a murdered woman. 

The Lightbringer story says nothing about Nissa Nissa giving her life willingly.  That's just an attempt to sugar-coat a giant turd.   Does a woman normally think she is about to be murdered when her husband asks her to disrobe?

Dawn is associated with the ideals of knighthood, which include the defense the weak.  Lightbringer is associated with a very different ideals -- the sacrifice of the weak as expendable.  

No two swords could be more diametrically opposed.  Why does anyone for two seconds believe that one has anything to do with the other?

[Ring3r]

24 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I just don't get it.  Dawn is a milky-white sword forged from meteoric iron.  It's special qualities came down from the stars.  It's milky white appearance is inspired by real-world anthracite blades.  Lightbringer is a fiery red sword forged using blood magic and human sacrifice.  It iron has no special source, and its special qualities come from the soul of a murdered woman. 

The Lightbringer story says nothing about Nissa Nissa giving her life willingly.  That's just an attempt to sugar-coat a giant turd.   Does a woman normally think she is about to be murdered when her husband asks her to disrobe?

Dawn is associated with the ideals of knighthood, which include the defense the weak.  Lightbringer is associated with a very different ideals -- the sacrifice of the weak as expendable.  

No two swords could be more diametrically opposed.  Why does anyone for two seconds believe that one has anything to do with the other?

The Dayne legend of Dawn is just that....a legend.  Lots of things get mixed around.  One possible solution is they forged it from a meteor that the Children called down to try and fight the out of control Others.  We just have no idea, but there are lots of possible solutions.

Also, you're conflating lots of things here.  The Nissa Nissa story very explicitly states that her sacrifice was willing.  She "bared her breast" for the blade to be quenched.  It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to twist that into "well he wanted her nekked, so she thought he just wanted some."  I don't know about you, but I don't include openly brandishing weapons in foreplay.  Maybe I'm just vanilla, but cooking a good meal, taking care of everything for a bit if she seems overwhelmed...slightly more effective than pulling out a weapon lol.

You're mixing and matching.  Lightbringer was forged thrice....two failures, and the final time, Nissa Nissa willingly gave her life to make it work.....I don't see that as unrealistic if the world was, essentially, ending.

Regardless, I try very hard to avoid viewing events, particularly the legendary ones, from a "modern" perspective.  I'll continue to maintain that that's a huge error in the analysis of any story.  GRRM didn't write this story as allegory to the real world.

[Gilbert Green]

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

The Dayne legend of Dawn is just that....a legend.  Lots of things get mixed around. 

Seems a poor excuse for replacing the text with stuff you made up that contradicts the text.

Westeros contains countless Valyrian Steel blades and only one Dawn.  The legend is a far better fit for an exaggerated account of a Valyrian Steel blade.   Why on earth would Lightbringer be a distorted memory of the ONE special blade in Westeros, out of hundreds of special blades, that is LEAST like Lightbringer?  Makes no sense.

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

One possible solution is they forged it from a meteor that the Children called down to try and fight the out of control Others. 

So the Children of the Forest are summoning meteors now?  Seems to me you are struggling too hard to fit square pegs into a round hole.

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

The Nissa Nissa story very explicitly states that her sacrifice was willing.  She "bared her breast" for the blade to be quenched. 

Did you not check the text? 

He asked her to bare her breast.  He said "know that I love you best etc."  She bared her breast ("I know not why").  He murdered her.  That's it.

This informed consent part is completely made up by you.

And it would even matter to me if she did consent to be murdered.   Why don't you try that story on the judge and jury next time you murder a woman.  "But your Honor!  She bared her breast!  She was obviously asking for it!  The knife, I mean.  I even told her I loved her best of all things in this world.  She must have known that meant I was about to murder her."

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to twist that into "well he wanted her nekked, so she thought he just wanted some." 

Really?  YOU are lecturing ME about mental gymnastics?  You just tried to convince me that a bared breast was an invitation to murder.

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I don't know about you, but I don't include openly brandishing weapons in foreplay. 

A hilarious argument.  I'd like to see you make that one to the judge as well.  "But your honor.  She SAW that i was brandishing a knife.  Why else would she bare her breast merely because I told her to?  That obviously means knew I was about to murder her, and was consenting."

In any event, the story says nothing about brandishing anything.  He summoned her.  She obediently came.  He gave another order.  She obediently complied.  Then he murdered her.

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Maybe I'm just vanilla, but cooking a good meal, taking care of everything for a bit if she seems overwhelmed...slightly more effective than pulling out a weapon lol.

Interesting plan.  Were you planning to put drugs in her meal so you could murder her in her sleep?  Or were you hoping she would be so grateful she would say "yes" when you asked her to let you murder her?

Or did you forget we were talking about murder?

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

You're mixing and matching.  Lightbringer was forged thrice....two failures, and the final time,

True, but so what?  Did the lion also consent?  And it's not like NN was present the first two times.  She came only when summoned.

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Nissa Nissa willingly gave her life to make it work.....

Again.  You made up this part.

Azhor Ahai is the one making the sacrifice.  He is giving up something that HE loves.  That's the entire point to what he says just before he murders her. 

14 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I don't see that as unrealistic if the world was, essentially, ending.

The world is always ending. Someone, at least, is always saying so.  And if GRRM's novel THE ARMAGEDDON RAG is any indication, he does not think end-of-the-world panics are a good excuse for murdering people.  It's a trap, and when you fall into the trap, you only play into the hands of the forces of death.  You pass the test, and maybe save the world, when you decide NOT to murder.

And if saving the world is supposedly so important as to justify murder, why would AA ask NN to consent?  If her life was expendable, then I would think that her consent was expendable too.

Davos, in the text, compares Edric Storm to Nissa Nissa.  Maybe, instead of smuggling Edric to safety, Davos should have just told him not to consent.  I'm being sarcastic of course.  Melisandre did not care about Edric's consent, and I think Azor Ahai clearly did not care about Nissa Nissa's consent either.

The significance of AA telling NN that he loves her, before murdering her, is that AA is the one making the sacrifice.  Not NN.  Her feelings and consent are irrelevant.

And in the end, this murder justification fantasy gets you no-where, because the result is a red sword, not a milky-white one.

[TheBlackSwan]

13 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I've theorized similarly.  Dawn has all the properties of Valyrian steel, but the wrong color.  Valyrian steel drinks sunlight, but Dawn appears to do the opposite.

Dawn shares some properties like the sharpness and being lighter than regular steel but it has an unknown magical powers.
Martin said he would rather chose Dawn than any Valyriansteel blade because "who knows what magical properties fallen stars bring to earth" and that "Dawn is even more potent than VS".
Lightbringer / Dragonsteel is a steel that has the same magical properties as dragonglass: it burns without deteriorating and melt the Others. There is only one steel that is connected to fire and blood magic: Valyriansteel.
So Valyriansteel, a steel that generate fire, is useful against the Others, against there cold swords, whereas Dawn would be useful for more scenarios, that's why it would be even more potent than VS.

Quote

The Nissa Nissa story very explicitly states that her sacrifice was willing. 

It's a religious tale by a cult who thinks their god is the real deal and that He is the god of Light and Love. Those kind of tales are heavily romanticized, pretty easy to see that they would make a blood sacrifice a romantic thing as not to taint the image of their god.
And I don't think the Last Hero had a wife, nothing about that in his tale, they (LH and the Children) probably sacrifice some random people to make the dragonsteel sword / Lightbringer.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Martin said he would rather chose Dawn than any Valyriansteel blade because "who knows what magical properties fallen stars bring to earth" and that "Dawn is even more potent than VS".

Thank you for that.  Sounds like, at least in GRRM's mind, Dawn's special properties have nothing to do with some ancient jerk murdering his wife.

1 hour ago, TheBlackSwan said:

It's a religious tale by a cult who thinks their god is the real deal and that He is the god of Light and Love. Those kind of tales are heavily romanticized, pretty easy to see that they would make a blood sacrifice a romantic thing as not to taint the image of their god.

It is not nearly as idealized as the version of the some fans here, which has Nissa Nissa consenting to her own murder.

1 hour ago, TheBlackSwan said:

And I don't think the Last Hero had a wife, nothing about that in his tale, they (LH and the Children) probably sacrifice some random people to make the dragonsteel sword / Lightbringer.

Well, it certainly would not surprise me if AA had a wife.  Lots of people do.

But yes, the abstract religious point of the story is that there is no limit to who the Red God, or his depraved cultists, will ask you to murder.  Your own loved ones are not exempt.  I'm afraid this may foreshadow the death of Shireen.

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Nissa Nissa consenting to her own murder.

Even if she did consent, which I am not sure is very probable, consent is no defence to murder.

[Gilbert Green]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Even if she did consent, which I am not sure is very probable, consent is no defence to murder.

100% agree.

[Ring3r]

On 11/26/2022 at 12:21 PM, TheBlackSwan said:

Dawn shares some properties like the sharpness and being lighter than regular steel but it has an unknown magical powers.
Martin said he would rather chose Dawn than any Valyriansteel blade because "who knows what magical properties fallen stars bring to earth" and that "Dawn is even more potent than VS".
Lightbringer / Dragonsteel is a steel that has the same magical properties as dragonglass: it burns without deteriorating and melt the Others. There is only one steel that is connected to fire and blood magic: Valyriansteel.
So Valyriansteel, a steel that generate fire, is useful against the Others, against there cold swords, whereas Dawn would be useful for more scenarios, that's why it would be even more potent than VS.

It's a religious tale by a cult who thinks their god is the real deal and that He is the god of Light and Love. Those kind of tales are heavily romanticized, pretty easy to see that they would make a blood sacrifice a romantic thing as not to taint the image of their god.
And I don't think the Last Hero had a wife, nothing about that in his tale, they (LH and the Children) probably sacrifice some random people to make the dragonsteel sword / Lightbringer.

Reading a lot in there.  Personally, I think it's a bit of a mistake to discount myths.  The specifics might not be reliable but the general themes do seem to survive....both in the real world, and the one that GRRM crafted (because he was heavily influenced by real world myths).

We shall see, hopefully.  WoW should give us some much needed background to chew on. Hopefully it livens up this place....in the years of downtime, people seem to have gotten more and more prone to insert their own views into the story. WoW cannot come soon enough, because we'll have something real to analyze again