Dawn

[Gilbert Green]

11 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Reading a lot in there.  Personally, I think it's a bit of a mistake to discount myths.  The specifics might not be reliable but the general themes do seem to survive....both in the real world, and the one that GRRM crafted (because he was heavily influenced by real world myths).

As a purely personal note, I have trouble understanding why anyone would choose to pick up a work of medieval fantasy with the purpose and expectation of being lectured that legends and old stories are pure bunk.  Where such disputes occur, one tends to expect the author to be on the side of Samwise, and not on the side of the Miller.  And if, by some chance, the Miller would seem to have the upper hand at present, one would expect the other foot to drop eventually.

But maybe GRRM has left us hanging for too long.  So we all think the moral is that there are no True Knights, and Heros get the heads chopped off.

[Evolett]

On 11/26/2022 at 7:21 PM, TheBlackSwan said:

Martin said he would rather chose Dawn than any Valyriansteel blade because "who knows what magical properties fallen stars bring to earth" and that "Dawn is even more potent than VS".
Lightbringer / Dragonsteel is a steel that has the same magical properties as dragonglass: it burns without deteriorating and melt the Others. There is only one steel that is connected to fire and blood magic: Valyriansteel.

Dawn being more potent than Valyrian Steel seems significant. That VS is effective against the Others is likely but we have too little information on Dawn to draw that conclusion. The "Just Maid," magical sword of Ser Galadon of Morne has aspects of both Dawn and Lightbringer. In the tale, the Maiden "lost her heart" to the knight, a Lightbringer reference. But then the Maiden is of the Faith and one of the symbolic stars. Adding to that is the morning/evening symbolism of Tarth which also applies to the Daynes' sword of the morning and evening. 

Perhaps what is needed in the end is not Dawn or Lightbringer, but a weapon that incorporates the powers of both swords to be able to defeat a singularly powerful opponent. I'm thinking of Euron here. Can Valyrian Steel cut through a suit of Valyrian Steel armor for instance? Might Dawn be better suited to this purpose? 

[Ring3r]

10 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

As a purely personal note, I have trouble understanding why anyone would choose to pick up a work of medieval fantasy with the purpose and expectation of being lectured that legends and old stories are pure bunk.  Where such disputes occur, one tends to expect the author to be on the side of Samwise, and not on the side of the Miller.  And if, by some chance, the Miller would seem to have the upper hand at present, one would expect the other foot to drop eventually.

But maybe GRRM has left us hanging for too long.  So we all think the moral is that there are no True Knights, and Heros get the heads chopped off.

I...think this statement is supporting what I said? There's a lot of words there, and they're connected by a lot of prepositional phrases.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I...think this statement is supporting what I said? There's a lot of words there, and they're connected by a lot of prepositional phrases.

Yes, I was agreeing with you.  As for the prepositional phrases, I guess they were my own thoughts.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:20 AM, Ring3r said:

The Dayne legend of Dawn is just that....a legend.  Lots of things get mixed around.  One possible solution is they forged it from a meteor that the Children called down to try and fight the out of control Others.  We just have no idea, but there are lots of possible solutions.

Also, you're conflating lots of things here.  The Nissa Nissa story very explicitly states that her sacrifice was willing.  She "bared her breast" for the blade to be quenched.  It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to twist that into "well he wanted her nekked, so she thought he just wanted some."  I don't know about you, but I don't include openly brandishing weapons in foreplay.  Maybe I'm just vanilla, but cooking a good meal, taking care of everything for a bit if she seems overwhelmed...slightly more effective than pulling out a weapon lol.

You're mixing and matching.  Lightbringer was forged thrice....two failures, and the final time, Nissa Nissa willingly gave her life to make it work.....I don't see that as unrealistic if the world was, essentially, ending.

Regardless, I try very hard to avoid viewing events, particularly the legendary ones, from a "modern" perspective.  I'll continue to maintain that that's a huge error in the analysis of any story.  GRRM didn't write this story as allegory to the real world.

She just thought it a medieval sex toy.

[LynnS]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:16 PM, Gilbert Green said:

Dawn is a milky white sword.  Lightbringer is a red sword.

At this point, I'm of a mind that there will be at least two magical swords in this story. 

The story from Asshai of the Red sword does seem to be a tale of the exchange of blood for fire/fire for blood.  Some elements of the story lead me to believe that AA was a priest of the Red Temple.  A temple is mentioned and he takes Sixty odd days to forge the sword successfully.  Is that without eating or sleeping?  We know Melisandre doesn't need to eat or sleep.  So then was Nissa Nissa a god's wife?  Someone with a fiery heart, like Melisandre?  Potentially, this could be a story of forging dragon steel where the sword captures the soul and fire on a Red Priestess.  This could be the road Melisandre is going down

The white sword is described as alive with light in Ned's dream.  Putting aside what it's made of or how it was forged; it does seem to be a magical sword as well.  Interesting that GRRM asks who knows what it could do.  I imagine that it could be a more powerful version of a glass candle and emit a light as powerful as the dawn or sun.  Light could be an effective weapon against the White Walkers or wights;  pushing back the darkness like a shield.

Glass candles could also be an effective light source at the Wall provided someone knows the trick of lighting them.  Sam describes the candle in Marwyn's room as like a sword.

I think the likely candidate for Lightbringer is the Dawn sword.  I'm not sure why the Red Sword is also named Lightbringer unless the Red Religion is conflating the two swords and claiming the victory as their own.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

At this point, I'm of a mind that there will be at least two magical swords in this story. 

The story from Asshai of the Red sword does seem to be a tale of the exchange of blood for fire/fire for blood.  Some elements of the story lead me to believe that AA was a priest of the Red Temple.  A temple is mentioned and he takes Sixty odd days to forge the sword successfully.  Is that without eating or sleeping?  We know Melisandre doesn't need to eat or sleep.  So then was Nissa Nissa a god's wife?  Someone with a fiery heart, like Melisandre?  Potentially, this could be a story of forging dragon steel where the sword captures the soul and fire on a Red Priestess.  This could be the road Melisandre is going down

The white sword is described as alive with light in Ned's dream.  Putting aside what it's made of or how it was forged; it does seem to be a magical sword as well.  Interesting that GRRM asks who knows what it could do.  I imagine that it could be a more powerful version of a glass candle and emit a light as powerful as the dawn or sun.  Light could be an effective weapon against the White Walkers or wights;  pushing back the darkness like a shield.

Glass candles could also be an effective light source at the Wall provided someone knows the trick of lighting them.  Sam describes the candle in Marwyn's room as like a sword.

I think the likely candidate for Lightbringer is the Dawn sword.  I'm not sure why the Red Sword is also named Lightbringer unless the Red Religion is conflating the two swords and claiming the victory as their own.

Dawn was a white sword made from a stone that fell from the sky. The Bloodstone Emperor (who's got some definite Azor Ahai vibes) worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky.

Who's to say what Lightbringer's steel looked like before it was set ablaze. But dark magical swords have been described as "drinking the light" more than once, similar to the Asshai's oily black stone, and to the Shade trees. My guess is that Lightbringer's steel was black before it caught fire.

And I'd wager that the white stone and black stone fallen from the sky have something to do with the white trees and black trees that populate the planet.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Dawn was a white sword made from a stone that fell from the sky. The Bloodstone Emperor (who's got some definite Azor Ahai vibes) worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky.

Who's to say what Lightbringer's steel looked like before it was set ablaze. But dark magical swords have been described as "drinking the light" more than once, similar to the Asshai's oily black stone, and to the Shade trees. My guess is that Lightbringer's steel was black before it caught fire.

And I'd wager that the white stone and black stone fallen from the sky have something to do with the white trees and black trees that populate the planet.

Sure, possibly.  My working theory at the moment is that there are or will be a white sword and a red sword at the Wall at some point.  I don't think Lightbringer is one character.  The Night Watch vow speaks of a fire that burns against the cold.  That sounds like the Red Sword that is always warm to the touch.  It might even be glass candles whose flame is not affected by the wind or the cold. I think Jon is the 'sword'.

If the Dawn sword can light up brighter than a glass candle; this fits with the light that brings the Dawn.  Light acting as a shield.  And so we have the sword, the shield and the horn at the Wall.  Likely three people acting together as one.

If we do have a means for using light as a shield; then can the Wall amplify the light since it's basically a giant crystal?  This brings to mind Jon's description of the Wall:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light,like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

 

There is the alive with light reference.  Stannis' sword is not Lightbringer but we are given a glimpse of what is might be potentially.  The Wall becomes a storm of light.

I think we will have Old Nan;s story of the last hero and his companions playing out at the Wall.  Who and what are the sword, the shield and the horn?  Jon and Sam seem fairly obvious.  But the shield not so much.  I'm guessing this is Jaimie ;who Bran sees shining like the sun in his coma dream.  The story of Galladorn of Morn playing out.

So how these swords are made or their source material seems a bit of obfuscation so we think there is only one sword or one hero.

[Gilbert Green]

17 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Dawn was a white sword made from a stone that fell from the sky. The Bloodstone Emperor (who's got some definite Azor Ahai vibes) worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky.

The Bloodstone Emperor's alien black stone is a Lovecraft reference.  His black stone is more fully described in Lovecraft's short story "The Haunter of the Dark", where, as you would expect, it is veined with red (hence GRRM calls it a "bloodstone").  In Planetos, it is associated with the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, of whom the Bloodstone Emperor is supposed to be the first high priest.  This is another Lovecraft reference, as it is in this same church that the evil black stone -- the sinister polyhedron -- is found in "The Haunter of the Dark".   The stone and church and cult are all associated with the worship of the demon god Nyarlathotep, who is, basically, the Devil.

I don't see the sword Dawn as having connotations nearly this sinister.  Outer Space, after all, is a very big place.

17 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Who's to say what Lightbringer's steel looked like before it was set ablaze. But dark magical swords have been described as "drinking the light" more than once, similar to the Asshai's oily black stone, and to the Shade trees. My guess is that Lightbringer's steel was black before it caught fire.

Can't rule it out.

But it does not feel right.  What of the falling star on Dunk's shield?  Should I also associate that with the demon god Nyarlathotep, who seeks to lead all humanity into madness and despair?  Or does it have more positive associations?

[Gilbert Green]

Here's Lovecraft's reference to the alien black stone that Robert Blake found in The Church of Starry Wisdom".  It is also known as the "shining trapezohedron".

"The four-inch seeming sphere turned out to be a nearly black, red-striated polyhedron with many irregular flat surfaces; either a very remarkable crystal of some sort, or an artificial object of carved and highly polished mineral matter. It did not touch the bottom of the box, but was held suspended by means of a metal band around its centre, with seven queerly designed supports extending horizontally to angles of the box’s inner wall near the top. This stone, once exposed, exerted upon Blake an almost alarming fascination. He could scarcely tear his eyes from it, and as he looked at its glistening surfaces he almost fancied it was transparent, with half-formed worlds of wonder within. Into his mind floated pictures of alien orbs with great stone towers, and other orbs with titan mountains and no mark of life, and still remoter spaces where only a stirring in vague blacknesses told of the presence of consciousness and will."

It seems to be a type of crystal -- not the sort of thing one could easily forge a sword out of.

The rest of the story can be found here:

"The Haunter of the Dark" by H. P. Lovecraft (hplovecraft.com)

 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

The Bloodstone Emperor's alien black stone is a Lovecraft reference.

GRRM is a huge fan of Lovecraft, and there is a ton of Lovecraft references in GRRM's world. But they are not merely references. Or, let's say, if it's ultimately just a ton of slavish references to some other guy's stories without being integrated into his own story, serving no purpose beyond fan boy easter eggs, well, then GRRM would prove to be a pretty poor writer.

He is also a huge fan of Tad Williams. I've never read the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series, but despite the similarities and the borrowing, it's not like reading MS&T will piece together all of the puzzles of ASOIAF's plot. Because GRRM is writing his own story.

GRRM has been planting Lovecraft references for sharp readers to pick up on ever since Book 2 (and really ramping them up in TWOIAF to hit us over the head with it), but how the Lovecraftian aspects of the narrative actually culminate in the larger story is another matter entirely. Perhaps Euron's shenanigans really will cause Chthulu to show up and photo-bomb the entire series...but I think it's more likely that the Lovecraftian elements will stem from things already in the story. Such as the Weirwoods!

The Weirwoods are the Great Old Ones of GRRM's story, and always have been. I would bet money that Euron's krakens of the deep are enormous maggot-white "tentacles" juiced up by blood sacrifice. Giants awakened from the earth.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

But it does not feel right.  What of the falling star on Dunk's shield?  Should I also associate that with the demon god Nyarlathotep, who seeks to lead all humanity into madness and despair?  Or does it have more positive associations?

Well, what about it doesn't feel right? Does Dunk's star ever "drink the light?" Or cause ancient civilizations to go mad? Again, GRRM is pretty clear when he's referencing Lovecraft, and when he's not. When those references are there, it's for the sake of horror, for something that is or was bad, ominous. Not Nyarlathotep, but this universe's version of him.

Sometimes a falling star is just that. And sometimes it's an astral body that lands on earth and seeds an alien life that that enables crazy, destabilizing magical powers in the world.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

GRRM is a huge fan of Lovecraft, and there is a ton of Lovecraft references in GRRM's world. But they are not merely references. Or, let's say, if it's ultimately just a ton of slavish references to some other guy's stories without being integrated into his own story, serving no purpose beyond fan boy easter eggs, well, then GRRM would prove to be a pretty poor writer.

I didn't accuse GRRM of being a bad writer.  If you think the Lovecraft references make him a bad writer (and I don't say you do) then that's your beef, not mine.

But it's still a Lovecraft reference.  And I sufficiently trust the connection between the Bloodstone Emperor's creepy black stone and Lovecraft's shining trapezohedron that I don't think it has anything to do with forging swords.  More likely to be a crystal used as a gateway for summoning demons.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, what about it doesn't feel right? Does Dunk's star ever "drink the light?" Or cause ancient civilizations to go mad?

Simply, I don't think one falling star has anything to do with the other.  Dunk's falling star and the Dayne's falling star both have positive associations.  The Bloodstone Emperor's creepy bloodstone, not so much.  Outer Space is a big place; like I said.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Again, GRRM is pretty clear when he's referencing Lovecraft, and when he's not. When those references are there, it's for the sake of horror, for something that is or was bad, ominous. Not Nyarlathotep, but this universe's version of him.

Nyarlathotep was a many faced god (The Many Faced God?).  One would not expect him to be recognizable unless he is actually referred to as "Nyarlathotep", which I don't expect GRRM to do.  But he's basically The Devil, rather like the Luciferian figure who makes a vague appearance in GRRM's The Armageddon Rag.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Sometimes a falling star is just that. And sometimes it's an astral body that lands on earth and seeds an alien life that that enables crazy, destabilizing magical powers in the world.

A third possibility is that a stone from the stars might have "magical" or special properties that are not sinister or creepy or demonic.  This is my opinion in the case of Dawn.  I don't think bat-winged flapping avatars of Satan will get summoned if you stare too long into the surface of Dawn's shining blade.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

30 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I didn't accuse GRRM of being a bad writer.  If you think the Lovecraft references make him a bad writer (and I don't say you do) then that's your beef, not mine.

But it's still a Lovecraft reference.  And I sufficiently trust the connection between the Bloodstone Emperor's creepy black stone and Lovecraft's shining trapezohedron that I don't think it has anything to do with forging swords.  More likely to be a crystal used as a gateway for summoning demons.

Simply, I don't think one falling star has anything to do with the other.  Dunk's falling star and the Dayne's falling star both have positive associations.  The Bloodstone Emperor's creepy bloodstone, not so much.  Outer Space is a big place; like I said.

Nyarlathotep was a many faced god (The Many Faced God?).  One would not expect him to be recognizable unless he is actually referred to as "Nyarlathotep", which I don't expect GRRM to do.  But he's basically The Devil, rather like the Luciferian figure who makes a vague appearance in GRRM's The Armageddon Rag.

A third possibility is that a stone from the stars might have "magical" or special properties that are not sinister or creepy or demonic.  This is my opinion in the case of Dawn.  I don't think bat-winged flapping avatars of Satan will get summoned if you stare too long into the surface of Dawn's shining blade.

I can't write much now (work), but just wanted to point out that the "Lightbringer" and "Sword of the Morning" imagery corresponds with Lucifer Morning Star/Venus myths, which are about a star rising to great heights and then falling. It could be that GRRM is using this to set up a take of ambition gone wrong. Or, simply to say that there are two sides to the same coin. Greatness has the power for evil, as well as for good. And some great figures will be known for both. BSE and Azor Ahai are two sides of the same coin, if not literally the same people.

[Gilbert Green]

48 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can't write much now (work), but just wanted to point out that the "Lightbringer" and "Sword of the Morning" imagery corresponds with Lucifer Morning Star/Venus myths, which are about a star rising to great heights and then falling. It could be that GRRM is using this to set up a take of ambition gone wrong. Or, simply to say that there are two sides to the same coin. Greatness has the power for evil, as well as for good. And some great figures will be known for both. BSE and Azor Ahai are two sides of the same coin, if not literally the same people.

These games of association are way too loose for me.  Dawn is not associated with the morning star or with the evening star.  It is associated with a shooting star.   Aphrodite and Satan don't seem very similar to me, and if you can conflate them with the phrase "Lucifer Morning Star/Venus myths" (as if all such myths were the same) you can conflate pretty much anything.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Just now, Gilbert Green said:

These games of association are way too loose for me.  Dawn is not associated with the morning star or with the evening star.  It is associated with a shooting star.   Aphrodite and Satan don't seem very similar to me, and if you can conflate them with the phrase "Lucifer Morning Star/Venus myths" (as if all such myths were the same) you can conflate pretty much anything.

Lucifer literally means Bringer of Light, and the planet Venus was called the Star of the Morning or Dawnstar as well as the Evenstar, due to how and when it emerged in the night sky relative to the sun.

I'm not a hardcore myth-head with respect to GRRM's writing, but at very least--just as with Lovecraft and other references--it's good to know the tropes and themes that he is going to put his own spin on. Totally cool if you aren't personally interested in pursuing those threads, but don't wave your ignorance about world mythology around like it's other people's problem.

[Gilbert Green]

22 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Lucifer literally means Bringer of Light,

I know that.  But so what?  Satan has many names.  This one is particularly ironic and/or accidental and may have originated in a mistake.  And if there is an association, it connects with the sinister fiery red sword Lightbringer, associated as it is with human sacrifice; and not with Dawn, the milky white sword of knightly virtue.

22 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

and the planet Venus was called the Star of the Morning or Dawnstar as well as the Evenstar, due to how and when it emerged in the night sky relative to the sun.

Yes, I know that.  But so what?  The sword Dawn is not associated with the morning star or the evening star or with the planet Venus or with the goddess Venus.  It is associated with a shooting star.

It is also (separately) associated with Dawn and Morning.  But so what?  Dawn and Morning follow every single Night, regardless of whether the Planet Venus is visible in the sky.  And now your thinking conflates morning and evening as if they meant the same thing and no distinction can be drawn between them.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Yes, I know that.  But so what? 

What's the point of any myth? Why does GRRM bring in the ruins of once-great cities, which call to mind Atlantis, Babel, or maybe Numenor from Tolkien? Traditional myths were used to transmit messages and convey values and meanings. The best fantasy fiction recontextualizes the myths in order to revitalize them and give them new relevance (while the worst fiction merely recycles tired tropes over and over.

GRRM uses his own Atlantis myths to seed the themes of the story he is building. He likely will subvert or update the myth in some way (as he did in his Thousand Worlds stories, using for instance, sci-fi settings to tell tales of great civilizations gone to ruin, and the limits of science). 

GRRM also is using the Venus/Lucifer duality to play on his grand hero drama. It's not a coincidence that several of our powerful characters (Stannis, Dany, and potentially Jon) ride on the knife's edge between heroism and villainy, and are often perceived as one or the other, depending on the party involved. My guess is that the power behind all of Planetos' magic is fundamentally neutral, but in practice can be used for great good or great evil, sometimes by the same person. Who is the "hero" and who is the "villain" is something that GRRM is playing with. He's not fully subverting it, just focusing on the fuzzy lines and complexities that muddy most people's simplistic idea of what a hero is. He wants an inspiring narrative, ultimately, but one that feels earned, and not cheap and easy. The Venus/Lucifer symbolism help to highlight that duality, and that larger conundrum.

[Curled Finger]

On 11/21/2022 at 7:25 AM, _Bittersteel_ said:

Tinfoil theory here. We know Dawn is forged from a “fallen star”. But the fallen star is the same black stone that Ying, Asshai, and the base of the Hightower is made from. But it was “purified” in the forging of Lightbringer by Nissa Anissa’s love and sacrifice.

I beg to differ here.  Starfall is made of the same material Dawn is and that material is white, pale as milk glass, not black.  This black stuff is different.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

What's the point of any myth?

What's the point of asking you?  You want to mash all myths, and other things, together into an amorphous meaningless pudding.  If I want to understand the myth of Judeo-Christian Satan, I'm certainly not going to ask the guy who treats Satan as one and the same as the Greek Aphrodite or the Roman Venus.  And if I wanted to discuss the mythological significance of morning stars and shooting stars, I would want to discuss it with someone who knows that morning stars and shooting stars are not the same thing.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Why does GRRM bring in the ruins of once-great cities, which call to mind Atlantis, Babel, or maybe Numenor from Tolkien?

Why are you changing the subject?