Dawn

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

What's the point of asking you?  You want to mash all myths, and other things, together into an amorphous meaningless pudding.  If I want to understand the myth of Judeo-Christian Satan, I'm certainly not going to ask the guy who treats Satan as one and the same as the Greek Aphrodite or the Roman Venus.  And if I wanted to discuss the mythological significance of morning stars and shooting stars, I would want to discuss it with someone who knows that morning stars and shooting stars are not the same thing.

Well, let's cut to the chase. You don't seem to want to have a discussion with me, and I have found you smug and incurious from the start, strengthening that impression with every response you post. So why don't we just "agree to disagree" and leave it at that?

But, if you ever actually want to learn something about the history of mythology and how meanings and associations evolve and accrue over time, you might want to start with a search on something like "syncretism." Or, at least stop being so smug and incurious. Taa-taa.

[Gilbert Green]

56 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, let's cut to the chase. You don't seem to want to have a discussion with me, and I have found you smug and incurious from the start, strengthening that impression with every response you post.

I'm very curious.  That's why I keep pointing out details.  Such as that fiery red swords are not the same as milky white swords.  And that Satan is not Aphrodite.  And that morning stars are not shooting stars.  And that shooting star A is not necessarily the same as shooting star B.  And that myth A is not necessarily the same as myth B.  And that the Bloodstone Emperor's black stone is a reference to Lovecraft's "shining trapezohedron" from "The Haunter of the Dark", and that it is not a kind of meteoric metal you can forge swords from, but a crystal used as a gateway by a hellish demon.  And that details matter.

56 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

So why don't we just "agree to disagree" and leave it at that?

Because you want to make one last potshot first, obviously.

56 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But, if you ever actually want to learn something about the history of mythology and how meanings and associations evolve and accrue over time, you might want to start with a search on something like "syncretism." Or, at least stop being so smug and incurious. Taa-taa.

Thanks professor. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

And that the Bloodstone Emperor's black stone is a reference to Lovecraft's "shining trapezohedron" from "The Haunter of the Dark"

The black stone and the Bloodstone Emperor always reminded me of the emperor Elagabalus and the black stone that he 'worshipped' because it was sacred to his god. That was very much a stone and could not be forged into a sword. It was also a meteor.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

15 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I'm very curious. 

Okay, Mr. Curious: find me a reference that explains the origin of how Satan came to be called "Bringer of Light" without a mention of the planet Venus. Just for your own curiosity, check it out some time. I won't hold my breath though...

[Gilbert Green]

42 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Okay, Mr. Curious: find me a reference that explains the origin of how Satan came to be called "Bringer of Light" without a mention of the planet Venus. Just for your own curiosity, check it out some time. I won't hold my breath though...

The professor is handing out assignments to the "smug" student.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Gilbert Green said:

The professor is handing out assignments to the "smug" student.

We're all students when we're open to learning new things. I've learned quite a bit from other commenters here. Hopefully you're open to learning about Lucifer, and syncretism in general, when it comes to how mythic symbols evolve and accrue over time.

[TheBlackSwan]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:26 AM, Ring3r said:

Reading a lot in there.  Personally, I think it's a bit of a mistake to discount myths.  The specifics might not be reliable but the general themes do seem to survive....both in the real world, and the one that GRRM crafted (because he was heavily influenced by real world myths).

We shall see, hopefully.  WoW should give us some much needed background to chew on. Hopefully it livens up this place....in the years of downtime, people seem to have gotten more and more prone to insert their own views into the story. WoW cannot come soon enough, because we'll have something real to analyze again

I don't discount the overall myth, I don't take it as pure truth since a legend is based on part of true event but have been inflated with added, romanticised elements. I try to sort out what is true and what is false and the scene where Sam kills an Other help a lot to perceive the truth of Lightbringer.

[Gilbert Green]

30 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

We're all students when we're open to learning new things. I've learned quite a bit from other commenters here. Hopefully you're open to learning about Lucifer, and syncretism in general, when it comes to how mythic symbols evolve and accrue over time.

How is this digression even relevant to the discussion?

The sword Dawn had no connection to Lucifer; and it has no connection to the planet Venus either. It is connected, separately, to mornings, and to a falling star.

You ignore the actual objection, and then make condescending remarks implying that I am ignorant, of this, that or the other irrelevant thing.  I'm glad I skipped your class, Professor.

I'm not disputing that Satan might have some association with the Planet Venus; or with the name "Lightbringer" and the name "Lucifer".  But that still does not get you to the sword Dawn.

[Gilbert Green]

I don't know about you, but when dawn breaks and the birds start singing, my first thought is not "Old Scratch is at it again."

[Phylum of Alexandria]

57 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

How is this digression even relevant to the discussion?

The sword Dawn had no connection to Lucifer; and it has no connection to the planet Venus either. It is connected, separately, to mornings, and to a falling star.

You ignore the actual objection, and then make condescending remarks implying that I am ignorant, of this, that or the other irrelevant thing.  I'm glad I skipped your class, Professor.

I'm not disputing that Satan might have some association with the Planet Venus; or with the name "Lightbringer" and the name "Lucifer".  But that still does not get you to the sword Dawn.

I can't even call what we're having a discussion. You pick certain points of my comments to respond to, ignore other chunks, and then ask a question that could be answered by my previous comments. You start out quite condescending (you assumed I didn't know GRRM was referencing Lovecraft simply because my interpretation is different than yours), then you feel slighted when I eventually respond in kind. To be clear though, I'm not getting truculent simply because I think you're ignorant. Everyone is ignorant about something. It's the mix of ignorance and rude smugness that gets my goat.

When I brought up Lucifer and Venus, you didn't simply ask what they had to do with Dawn. You smugly acted as if you knew the lore around Satan and how he has many names. As if the notion of Satan hadn't itself evolved over time, largely through extra-biblical conjecture based on syncretic trends. It's fine to ask for clarity on what this myth might mean for Dawn, but you also made it seem like such a conflation of Lucifer and Venus, which is pretty much an indisputable fact about the history of the myth, was kookiness.

What I have been trying to highlight are the dualities in ASOIAF's in-story myths. White stone, white sword (positive associations); blood stone, Lightbringer (initially positive, but a good deal that's negative). While there may indeed be two magical swords that pop up in the story proper, Dawn and Lightbringer, I guarantee that it will not be a simple duality of good and evil. The Lightbringer/Lucifer myth help cue us to that fact. It also plays out in the character arcs that are already published. Stannis seems to embody Azor Ahai, but also Night's King. Dany also wants to be Azor Ahai, but her embrace of fire and blood may help us learn that the hero's prophecy had a darker side to it.

And Dawn, who knows who will wield Dawn, probably Jon. Who is on his own potential path of cynicism and anger that he'll have to step away from.

As for the magical side of the plot, I would not be surprised at all if the magic that help forge these swords of destiny was also directly tied to the start of the Long Night. That's informed by themes in GRRM's other writing, but also buttressed by the Lucifer myth, which GRRM has seeded into his text at various points. But, I fully admit, this is wild conjecture.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can't even call what we're having a discussion. You pick certain points of my comments to respond to, ignore other chunks, and then ask a question that could be answered by my previous comments.

Well, certainly the above does not sound much like discussion.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

You start out quite condescending (you assumed I didn't know GRRM was referencing Lovecraft simply because my interpretation is different than yours), then you feel slighted when I eventually respond in kind.

I mentioned the Lovecraft connection because it was relevant.  And I don't feel slighted at all.  I'm sorry that you do.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

To be clear though, I'm not getting truculent simply because I think you're ignorant. Everyone is ignorant about something. it's the mix of ignorance and rude smugness that gets my goat.

Yes, I get that you think I am ignorant and smug.  You have told me so many times.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

When I brought up Lucifer and Venus, you didn't simply ask what they had to do with Dawn. You smugly acted as if you knew the lore around Satan and how he has many names.

You just don't get it.  It's not that I don't understand the game of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon that you are playing.  It is just that I know that, in the final analysis, associations are not equations.  The world is more complicated than that.  We are not all Kevin Bacon, after all.  There really is only one Kevin Bacon.

Yes, I know.  A biblical poet compared someone who may or may not have been Satan, with something which may or may not have been the morning star; this got translated first in the Greek, and then into the Latin Vulgate, and this ultimately led to the name "Lucifer" being regarded as a name for Satan. 

But like I said, when the dawn breaks in the morning, and the birds start singing, I do not shudder in horror because I know Satan is up to his old tricks.  Nobody sane thinks that way.  Associations are not equations.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

As if the notion of Satan itself hadn't itself evolved over time, largely through extra-biblical conjecture based on syncretic trends.

If the notion of Satan has evolved so much over time, then why are you making so much about Isaiah possibly comparing him, maybe in an ironic way, to the morning star?

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

It's fine to ask for clarity on what this myth might mean for Dawn, but you also made it seem like such a conflation of Lucifer and Venus, which is pretty much an indisputable fact about the history of the myth, was kookiness.

Well yes, I do think you ultimately have to realize that Satan, and the Planet Venus, and the Goddess Venus, are three very different things; regardless of whether or not they have been compared and associated by this or that poet.  And yes, a failure to realize this does lead to kookiness.  And no, poetic associations are not "indisputed facts". 

But nonetheless, I did acknowledge the possibility that GRRM intended "Lightbringer" as a Satanic reference.  You continue to fight that battle instead of moving on to our real disagreement, which is that I don't think GRRM intends "Dawn" and "Sword of the Morning" as Satanic references.  That's too many degrees of Kevin Bacon for me.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

What I have been trying to highlight are the dualities in ASOIAF's in-story myths. White stone, white sword (positive associations); blood stone, Lightbringer (initially positive, but a good deal that's negative). While there may indeed be two magical swords that pop up in the story proper, Dawn and Lightbringer, I guarantee that it will not be a simple duality of good and evil. The Lightbringer/Lucifer myth help cue us to that fact.

I'm not sure if Lightbringer is a Satanic reference or not.  But if it is a Satanic Reference, I would think it were a pretty good clue that Lightbringer is a force for evil

But you don't want to accept that, apparently because you are too postmodern to accept that there is such thing as evil.  Why are we even bothering, then?  The Satanic reference does not mean anything; and could just as easily mean that Lightbringer is the Easter Bunny.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And Dawn, who knows who will wield Dawn, probably Jon.

Sandor.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I wonder if you do actually know what literary allusions and foreshadowing are, and that storytelling is not a literal equation. Maybe some writers' stories are more like equations than others, but GRRM the self-described gardener loves making broad associations, dipping into myths, symbolic imagery, and all sort of fun literary stuff that you might call insane.

And if you really do think that actual characters from Lovecraft are going to feature in this series, well, hats off to you, sir. You are free to enjoy that universe, but it is an alternative dimension that I will not occupy.

Save your smug "You just don't get its" and "Yes I knows" for someone who actually thinks you have anything worthwhile to say. Your quick Wikipedia searches on Lucifer in Isaiah don't do you any favors. "May or may not be Satan." Just admit that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Have fun with your "equations," dude.

 

[Gilbert Green]

15 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I wonder if you do actually know what literary allusions and foreshadowing are, and that storytelling is not a literal equation.

I did not think you were writing your own fan fiction.  I though we were looking for clues in GRRM's work.  And I do think that requires something a bit more disciplined than free-form association.

15 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Maybe some writers' stories are more like equations than others, but GRRM the self-described gardener loves making broad associations, dipping into myths, symbolic imagery, and all sort of fun literary stuff that you might call insane.

I mentioned the Lovecraft reference, and you got piqued at me.

15 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And if you really do think that actual characters from Lovecraft are going to feature in this series, well, hats off to you, sir. You are free to enjoy that universe, but it is an alternative dimension that I will not occupy.

Yup.  You are definitely piqued.  I never said that the "shining trapezohedron" was going to appear.  You brought up the bloodstone emperor's black stone, and I told you what it referred to.  And what it referred to tended to negate the suspicion that it had anything to do with forging swords.  Instead of acknowledging that point, you hurl more straw men at me.

15 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Save your smug "You just don't get its" and "Yes I knows" for someone who actually thinks you have anything worthwhile to say. Your quick Wikipedia searches on Lucifer in Isaiah don't do you any favors. "May or may not be Satan." Just admit that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Whatever, dude.  You just love telling me how ignorant I am.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sandor.

Why Sandor?  How do you reckon?

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Why Sandor?  How do you reckon?

Dawn is a large sword; a large man is ideal to wield it

Dawn is associated with the ideals of knighthood, and Sandor is being set up to fill that role.  The Hound was no True Knight, but the Hound is dead.  The toy that little Sandor stole from Gregor was a knight, and the venom that the Hound spat at the ideals of knighthood have a "protest too much" quality about them.

In the old tales, True Knights defend maidens and/or slay dragons.  The Hazzea incident foreshadows a problem that is not going to go away.   Sandor's terror of fire foreshadows that a dragon (not Gregor) is his ultimate nemesis.  And it's not like we have not seen him defend a maiden before.

Curious parallels foreshadow an association between Sandor and Edric Dayne, the Lord of Starfall.  And Allyria Dayne needs a new fiancee.

-

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Dawn is a large sword; a large man is ideal to wield it

Dawn is associated with the ideals of knighthood, and Sandor is being set up to fill that role.  The Hound was no True Knight, but the Hound is dead.  The toy that little Sandor stole from Gregor was a knight, and the venom that the Hound spat at the ideals of knighthood have a "protest too much" quality about them.

In the old tales, True Knights defend maidens and/or slay dragons.  The Hazzea incident foreshadows a problem that is not going to go away.   Sandor's terror of fire foreshadows that a dragon (not Gregor) is his ultimate nemesis.  And it's not like we have not seen him defend a maiden before.

Curious parallels foreshadow an association between Sandor and Edric Dayne, the Lord of Starfall.  And Allyria Dayne needs a new fiancee.

-

Interesting.  He does have unfinished business, with whatever remains of Gregor, as well.  I think it would be a case of "the things we do for love", rather than a vengeful killing.  

I've entertained the idea that the Dawn sword will pass through several hands before reaching its ultimate destination.  Sandor seems a good candidate to carry it for a time, along with Brienne.  Also not a knight, but someone who embodies the highest knightly virtues.

[Evolett]

6 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Dawn is a large sword; a large man is ideal to wield it

This is a very important observation when it comes to figuring out who might end up wielding Dawn. The author does point out the size of various swords, also in relation to the wielder. The Greatjon's sword is the biggest greatsword Bran had ever seen - so definitely bigger than Ice and big enough to match the Greatjon's size. Even though Longclaw is a smaller bastard sword, LC Mormont tells Jon to wear it over the shoulder because Jon was not tall enough when it was gifted:

Quote

“I suppose they do. You’ll want to wear that over the shoulder, I imagine. It’s too long for the hip, at least until you’ve put on a few inches. 

Ice has been converted into two smaller swords with Widow's Wail even shorter than Oathkeeper, to suit Joffery's hand. And so on. So yes, whoever ends up with the sword must be large enough to use it, otherwise the sword becomes more of a hinderance to the fight than anything else. 

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I've entertained the idea that the Dawn sword will pass through several hands before reaching its ultimate destination.  Sandor seems a good candidate to carry it for a time, along with Brienne.  Also not a knight, but someone who embodies the highest knightly virtues.

As of the current stage of the story, my money is on Brienne. She's proven herself "worthy," so far at least. That brings me round  to the morning star / Venus / Aphrodite / Lucifer discussion (which I do not really want to get involved in, we all have our personal intepretations). I recall GRRM stating that he chooses names and descriptors that can have several meanings and I feel "Dawn" is one of these examples. As such, I do see a connection to Venus which is a "rising and falling" star, bringing the dawn when it rises, and the night when it "falls." Dawn is wielded by the "Sword of the Morning" and the Sword of the Morning is also a constellation of stars. That the Daynes also use the title "Sword of the Evening" and the last known holder of that title was sent to the Night's Watch (for crimes that have not been disclosed to us?) supports the "falling star" imagery.   

Further, Dawn is said to have been forged in the heart of a fallen star. This could have a double meaning too. Besides being forged from no metal known to man, the fallen "star" could also imply it was also forged in the heart of an important person, someone who fell from grace, a "star" who had lost favour or for whatever reason was executed or sacrificed to empower the sword, Nissa Nissa style. Looking at it from this point of view, Dawn is at once a sword of the morning (because of its name) and a sword of the evening (because its forged in the heart of a fallen star). At the same time, the fallen star could be a "fallen angel," / Lucifer / Lightbringer reference, bringing us round to Venus again. That said, we do not even need to invoke Venus to come to this conclusion, but we can. 

Another line of intepretation would be that Dawn was simply named for the origins of the original wielder. After all, he/she followed a fallen star, came from somewhere else, most likely from the GEotD and the sword was named for that. Note, the Mountains of the Morn can be found in the far east of Essos. In this case, Dawn might have played no role in ending a long night or in bringing back the dawn, like Lightbringer is said to have done. 

 

As far as Brienne is concerned, we also have the morning / evening allusions, this time in the name of two towns on Tarth - the former capital Morne (in the east) and the present location where Tarth is ruled from, Evenfall Hall. A former king of Tarth was known as the "Evenstar." Then there is the legend of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight, who hailed from Morne. The Perfect Knight sounds like someone who was "worthy."  Galladon received the sword, the Just Maid, from the Maiden, who "lost his heart to him." The Just Maid encompasses elements of both Dawn and Lightbringer. Brienne strives to be this "perfect knight." 

If Tarth is also part of this Venus rising and falling star imagery, where is Aphrodite? Well, if the author is using this, then Brienne is a version of Aphrodite. The latter was a goddess of war as well as of sexual love and beauty. Brienne is an inversion of love and beauty, though she is called the "Beauty" behind her back. Aphrodite had several lovers but Brienne is still a maiden, one whose virginity several men have tried to compromise. I suspect George is having fun with the name "Tarth" which is close to "tart" as in a sexually promiscuous woman. Brienne however fits the "goddess of war" moniker however. That is what she lives for and is prepared for. 

 

6 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

In the old tales, True Knights defend maidens and/or slay dragons.  The Hazzea incident foreshadows a problem that is not going to go away.   Sandor's terror of fire foreshadows that a dragon (not Gregor) is his ultimate nemesis.  And it's not like we have not seen him defend a maiden before.

I agree with Hazzea's story being very relevant to what is to come, also, expecially since Dany does not recall the child's name in her last chapter. Sandor is a good candidate but again, we have the tale of Galladon from Brienne, in which the knight slew a dragon with his magic sword. Brienne too is "defending" a maiden, Sansa, though Sansa has not yet been found by Brienne. That is her one mission. Depending on how the stuff with Jamie plays out, Brienne could actually progress from a "morning star" to a "fallen evening star." 

Brienne is also connected to the morning star by way of the weapon she used during Renly's tourney - a morning star. With this she defeated the Knight of Flowers. Next, she's up against a tripple morning star, wielded by Shagwell. That I find particularly intriguing and wonder if we can connect the tripple morning star to for example, the three-headed-dragon. We can, if we add the legend of Qarth etc. into the mix but this post is long enough . To round it off, Brienne is certainly big enough to wield Dawn. 

 

 

 

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've entertained the idea that the Dawn sword will pass through several hands before reaching its ultimate destination.  Sandor seems a good candidate to carry it for a time, along with Brienne.  Also not a knight, but someone who embodies the highest knightly virtues.

There are many curious parallels between Brienne and Sandor.

On the question of whether she will wield Dawn, it may be worth mentioning that she already wields a very-large special sword, with icy associations:  Oathkeeper.

Oathkeeper is called a "longsword"; and Dawn is called a "greatsword".  This leads to a natural assumption that there is a significant difference in size and appearance, but on consideration, I'm not sure that's true.  "Greatsword" and "Longsword" adjoining categories of sword, similar in function.  No hard-and-fast definitions distinguish them.  Logically, they must be overlapping categories.

Ice is a HUGE sword, not only in terms of length, but in the width of its blade.  It must have at least twice the metal that would be necessary to forge what could easily be called a "greatsword".  Oathkeeper uses most of the metal from Ice, so it seems plausible to me that it might be called a "greatsword" as well, or at least might easily be so-called in the hands of a warrior smaller than Brienne.  Conversely, it is conceivable that the greatsword "Dawn" might easily be called a "longsword" in the hands of a warrior as large as Sandor.

If Sandor ends up wielding Dawn, we may have yet another curious parallel between Sandor and Brienne - similar blades --, which may help make it hard for a casual observer to tell them apart.

Dawn is traditionally the sword of a (worthy) knight, meaning it is associated with oaths of its own.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

That brings me round  to the morning star / Venus / Aphrodite / Lucifer discussion (which I do not really want to get involved in, we all have our personal intepretations).

I'm not very good with these crossover myths, other than to say they feel something like... Invariably I end up going down association rabbit holes, until I end up in the weeds and have thoroughly confused myself.  At best, I try to stick with curiosities I find in the text for a hint or association although some are rather nebulous connections.

Duly noted that the Sword of the Morning is a constellation and one that Jon points out (to the reader):

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.

 

GRRM might well have said that the Dawn sword had not been claimed, and resides still in the South, in the Sword Tower, at Starfall.   Why would Jon take note of it?  My tinfoil hat tells me that the sword will make its way to the Wall.  Also that there is a diamond in the hilt.  How it makes that journey or who will use it or carry it is an open question.  

I think anyone can take it; but wielding it as a weapon, as @Gilbert Green points out is a matter of size and strength, and the quality of one's soul..

So why does Grrm say who knows what it can do?  What is its magic and who has a soul pure enough to bring forth its light.  I'm guessing that is the trick of it.  As a weapon of light can be held aloft as a shield.  Even Jaimie can wield it without a sword hand.

So I'm looking for some real redemption arcs for Sandor and Jaimie as worthy sword bearers and/or bringers of light. 

It's no coincidence that Old Nan says that stories are like old friends and you have to visit them from time to time.  That might as well be GRRM telling us that's what he intends to do with characters in the story. 

The story of the Just Maid giving the Perfect Knight a sword falls right into Brienne's bailiwick.  

 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I know this thread is about Dawn, but I can't help thinking that it's not going to play all that major a role in the grand scheme of the ASOIAF story. It will emerge and serve some purpose against the Others, but its status as Westeros' Excaliber is a feint, a distraction.

GRRM has said many times that he doesn't think that magic should be a handy solution in a story; it should help reveal character. It almost always will have unintended consequences or some terrible cost. Yes, even the Sword of legend is essentially a sword without a hilt.

I think that, given the range of magical assets that may be available by the endgame (warging, greenseeing, dragonriding, sorcerous horns, legendary swords) maybe there's going to be some concerted collective effort among several heroes to fight back the storm before the end of life is nigh. But such an effort may involve some shrewd decisions by powerful actors, with some uncomfortable ramifications--almost certainly due to magic.

Mind you, that doesn't make him a postmodernist. I actually think he is trying to make an inspiring narrative to get readers out from the despair of postmodernism. But in order to do so, he has to take the challenge of postmodernism seriously. He needs to acknowledge the complexity, messiness, uncertainty, and moral grayness that's so often experienced in life before he can urge us to keep on fighting for a better world. Most hero narratives make combat and magic the primary keys to success. For GRRM's hero's narrative, it will be about the choices that the heroes make to work toward something better.

The real dawn of the story is the dream of spring, which will likely be made possible by people working together toward a workable future.