Dawn

[Gilbert Green]

48 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

GRRM has said many times that he doesn't think that magic should be a handy solution in a story; it should help reveal character. It almost always will have unintended consequences or some terrible cost. Yes, even the Sword of legend is essentially a sword without a hilt.

I think that, given the range of magical assets that may be available by the endgame (warging, greenseeing, dragonriding, sorcerous horns, legendary swords) maybe there's going to be some concerted collective effort among several heroes to fight back the storm before the end of life is nigh. But such an effort may involve some shrewd decisions by powerful actors, with some uncomfortable ramifications--almost certainly due to magic.

We have no information, though, that dark sorcery, or indeed any sorcery at all, was used to create Dawn.  In this respect, as in many others, its story is directly the opposite of that of Lightbringer, the fiery red sword of human sacrifice.  If Dawn has special properties that can be called "magic", they seem merely to be a free gift from the heavens.  No deal with the devil required.  If anything, it has even fewer sorcerous implications than ordinary Valyrian steel.

As far as we know, it is just a really really good sword, with some history and symbolism and extra-terrestrial origins attached to it.   It you were a True Knight and you wanted to dream the impossible dream, bear the unbearable sorrow, and fight the unbeatable foe, would you not want a sharp well-made sword, rather than a blunt rusty one?  As long as it can be obtained by means fair rather than foul (for instance, as long as you don't have to murder your wife to get it), I think the True Knight can pick up the better sword with a clean conscience.

Bran warging Hodor, however, has sinister implications.  As does alot of the other things we see in the series.  Dawn, not so much.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

8 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

We have no information, though, that dark sorcery, or indeed any sorcery at all, was used to create Dawn.  In this respect, as in many others, its story is directly the opposite of that of Lightbringer, the fiery red sword of human sacrifice.  If Dawn has special properties that can be called "magic", they seem merely to be a free gift from the heavens.  No deal with the devil required.  If anything, it has even fewer sorcerous implications than ordinary Valyrian steel.

As far as we know, it is just a really really good sword, with some history and symbolism and extra-terrestrial origins attached to it.   It you were a True Knight and you wanted to dream the impossible dream, bear the unbearable sorrow, and fight the unbeatable foe, would you not want a sharp well-made sword, rather than a blunt rusty one?  As long as it can be obtained by means fair rather than foul (for instance, as long as you don't have to murder your wife to get it), I think the True Knight can pick up the better sword with a clean conscience.

Bran warging Hodor, however, has sinister implications.  As does alot of the other things we see in the series.  Dawn, not so much.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and most of what we have regarding Dawn is a yawning gap of information, intentionally so. I can admit that GRRM has so far not actively contaminated the nature of the legendary white sword, but we should also note that we still "don't know" who Jon Snow's parents were. In other words, GRRM keeps things from the story because he loves a good mystery and a good reveal, but some reveals take time. Dawn's entrance into the story will come, eventually, and the mystery will be revealed.

One thing I would bet the house on, is that GRRM would never, ever have "a free gift from the heavens" in his fantasy fiction. It represents everything that irritates him about the genre. For him the magic should come at a cost, it should cause complications rather than solve them. And that is because, as he says over and over again, magic should reveal who a character is, not solve their problems.

If you find that hard to believe, just read his other stories involving heroism, and read his own words about the subject.

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and most of what we have regarding Dawn is a yawning gap of information, intentionally so. I can admit that GRRM has so far not actively contaminated the nature of the legendary white sword, but we should also note that we still "don't know" who Jon Snow's parents were. In other words, GRRM keeps things from the story because he loves a good mystery and a good reveal, but some reveals take time. Dawn's entrance into the story will come, eventually, and the mystery will be revealed.

One thing I would bet the house on, is that GRRM would never, ever have "a free gift from the heavens" in his fantasy fiction. It represents everything that irritates him about the genre. For him the magic should come at a cost, it should cause complications rather than solve them. And that is because, as he says over and over again, magic should reveal who a character is, not solve their problems.

If you find that hard to believe, just read his other stories involving heroism, and read his own words about the subject.

I appreciate you acknowledging that there are no clues pointing to the sinister nature of Dawn.  Yes, George does like to surprise his readers, but his philosophy is also to provide clues to his surprises don't feel like cheats.  So I would think that, in this context, absence of evidence would be at least some small evidence of absence.  One might expect some evidence, as when a lack of bear prints in the snow suggests there has been no bear in the yard recently. 

Sunlight and rain are free gifts from the heavens, and so, by extension, is the green grass beneath our feet.  Those can be called "magic" too -- at least the ancients certainly saw it that way.  More rarely meteors fall from the heavens.  Dawn seems to derive from such a "gift".  It's special qualities seem to derive from the special qualities of this particular piece of meteoric metal, with some small aid from the forger's skill (as, plausibly, did many legendary swords from our own dark-ages history).  I'm not interested in arguing whether it is a gift from God or a gift from Nature.  I'm just saying it is not the sort of "magic" that comes with a devil's price.  It is just a particularly good sword.

But if you merely want Dawn to have some kind of price, not necessarily a devilish one, then that element and price is already foreshadowed in the legend.   Apparently, only a worthy (true) knight can or should wield it.  Sounds like a pretty serious price to me.  Being a True Knight ain't easy.  It's likely to get you killed, and an extra-good sword is only small compensation.

I have read most of GRRM's fiction, and most of his quotes.  And I don't know what your final remark refers to.  I suspect you view everything GRRM says through your own particular lens.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I appreciate you acknowledging that there are no clues pointing to the sinister nature of Dawn.

I never said there were no clues; I said there was no reveal in the plot proper. Given your strong penchant for poor reading comprehension with respect to these comments, I'm not surprised at all that you've read GRRMs work and somehow expect a free gift from the heavens.

Sounds like we're in agree-to-disagree territory again. Care to leave it at that?

Should GRRM ever actually finish the series, hopefully you wouldn't be too proud to admit you were proven wrong if Dawn isn't the "Simple Hero's Tool" that it's made to be in the legends. I certainly wouldn't mind admitting I had been wrong. Until then, we'll just have to cling to our own respective fan fictions.

[Gilbert Green]

21 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I never said there were no clues; I said there was no reveal in the plot proper. Given your strong penchant for poor reading comprehension with respect to these comments, I'm not surprised at all that you've read GRRMs work and somehow expect a free gift from the heavens.

Sounds like we're in agree-to-disagree territory again. Care to leave it at that?

Should GRRM ever actually finish the series, hopefully you wouldn't be too proud to admit you were proven wrong if Dawn isn't the "Simple Hero's Tool" that it's made to be in the legends. I certainly wouldn't mind admitting I had been wrong. Until then, we'll just have to cling to our own respective fan fictions.

I was trying to say "thank you" for what seemed like some acknowledgment of my position.  If you want to spit that back in my face, then fine.  Let's be at each other's throats then.

Now that you say there are clues that Dawn is sinister, what are they?  I don't recall you presenting any.  I agree there are clues that Lightbringer is sinister.  And I recall you arguing that Dawn and Lightbringer are one and the same because "syncretism" or whatever.  But that's about it.

I never said I "expected" a free gift from the heavens.  I was referring to what we already knew.  That phrase was a reference to a meteor.  That fell from the sky (that is, from the heavens).  And it happened long ago in the dawn age or something.  And meteors that fall from the sky don't generally come with a price tag.  Hence, it was "free".  This was already explained.  Why twist my words?

None of us know what GRRM will write.  We are all just guessing.  Why would I have trouble admitting I am wrong?  I'm not the one backing my ego into a corner by constantly insulting my adversary.

Still, I don't have a problem making verifiable/falsifiable predictions, for the sake of bragging rights after the book is released.  I think it is a fun game. 

What I have so far, is that you think Jon will wield Dawn, and I think Sandor will wield Dawn.

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

 

27 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I was trying to say "thank you" for what seemed like some acknowledgment of my position.  If you want to spit that back in my face, then fine.  Let's be at each other's throats then.

Now that you say there are clues that Dawn is sinister, what are they?  I don't recall you presenting any.  I agree there are clues that Lightbringer is sinister.  And I recall you arguing that Dawn and Lightbringer are one and the same because "syncretism" or whatever.  But that's about it.

I never said I "expected" a free gift from the heavens.  I was referring to what we already knew.  That phrase was a reference to a meteor.  That fell from the sky (that is, from the heavens).  And it happened long ago in the dawn age or something.  And meteors that fall from the sky don't generally come with a price tag.  Hence, it was "free".  This was already explained.  Why twist my words?

None of us know what GRRM will write.  We are all just guessing.  Why would I have trouble admitting I am wrong?  I'm not the one backing my ego into a corner by constantly insulting my adversary.

Still, I don't have a problem making verifiable/falsifiable predictions, for the sake of bragging rights after the book is released.  I think it is a fun game. 

What I have so far, is that you think Jon will wield Dawn, and I think Sandor will wield Dawn.

Oh my God, you are an endless supply of WTF.

Go back to the comments I made and actually read them. Read them carefully. I never said "Dawn is evil." I never said "Dawn is a demon sword." I never said "The Wielder of the Legendary Sword is the Devil." Or any of the nonsense that you have been inferring.

I never mentioned "Satan," I mentioned Lucifer and Venus, specifically with respect to the concept of duality. I brought up that example as possible (I would say probable) name-checking of myths on GRRM's part to seed a theme that's already been building in his story proper, one that may indeed implicate the nature of Dawn.

Let's move beyond the myths for a second and look at some characters in the story proper. I already mentioned Stannis and Dany, and Jon. These are characters who seem to be, or at least want to be, heroes of prophecy. They have real power, and actual good intentions, but they also have flaws and make some major mistakes. In fact, they all seem to be treading quite close to the realm of villainy. That doesn't mean they are villains. Or evil. It means they ride the line between heroism and villainy, despite their good intentions. And it also means that they are sometimes seen and sung as villains by others, perhaps cemented that way in the histories. They embody the Luciferian myth with this duality. GRRM's planting of morning stars and Lucifers in his world-building are just easter egg hints to indicate that this is a theme he wants to nudge us towards.

I mentioned Dawn as a possible component of this collection of nods toward the Lucifer/Venus myth, and others here agree with me. Feel free to disagree; I'm not saying it's strong evidence on its own, but: 1) it's a well established association on its own in our history of mythology, 2) it lines up with other themes and arcs in the books so far.

GRRM intending Dawn to be wrapped up in the Lucifer myth is not a hill I would die on. However, the larger theme of duality is an important one for the story, the myth is almost certainly referenced elsewhere (he has at least 4 Lucifers in his world), and it's a fair assumption that Dawn might be wrapped up in this theme. Not only did you think the very possibility of this to be absurd, you also seem to reject the fact that this theme of moral duality is even there.

But back to Dawn. My suspicion is that all magic will have some unsavory root to it. Maybe not evil, but troubling, costly, unpredictable. Not for nothing is it described as a "sword without a hilt." That all magic is blood and fire of some sort. That prophecy will bit your prick off every time. This reflects GRRM's beliefs on using magic in dramatic fiction:

• GRRM: “Fantasy needs magic in it, but I try to control the magic very strictly. You can have too much magic in fantasy very easily, and then it overwhelms everything and you lose all sense of realism. And I try to keep the magic magical — something mysterious and dark and dangerous, and something never completely understood. I don’t want to go down the route of having magic schools and classes where, if you say these six words, something will reliably happen. Magic doesn’t work that way. Magic is playing with forces you don’t completely understand. And perhaps with beings or deities you don’t completely understand. It should have a sense of peril about it.”
•  
• “Magic should never be the solution to the problem.My credo as a writer has always been Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech where he said, “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” That transcends genre. That’s what good fiction, good drama is about: human beings in trouble.You have to make a decision, you have to do something, your life is in danger or your honor is in danger, or you're facing some crisis of the heart. To make a satisfying story, the protagonist has to solve the problem, or fail to solve the problem – but has to grapple with the problem in some kind of rational way, and the reader has to see that. And if the hero does win in the end, he has to feel that that victory is earned. The danger with magic is that the victory could be unearned. Suddenly you're in the last chapter and you wind up with a deus ex machina. The hero suddenly remembers that if he can just get some of this particular magical plant, then he can brew a potion and solve his problem. And that's a cheat. That feels very unsatisfying. It cheapens the work...Magic can ruin things. Magic should never be the solution. Magic can be part of the problem.”

 

[Craving Peaches]

I think Dawn could be made of a special magic version of meteoric iron. Back before people could mine/smelt iron properly, the main source, if I recall correctly, was from meteors. So it was much rarer. The Daynes are a first men house, so presumably they were around when everyone was still using Bronze weapons. An iron sword when everyone else was just using bronze would give the wielder an advantage, but because it was extra special it still keeps that edge even against steel weapons. If Starfall is a valley it could even be that the valley was created by the same meteor, and the Daynes followed the trajectory of the shooting star, and Dawn was forged from some of the remnants.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think Dawn could be made of a special magic version of meteoric iron. Back before people could mine/smelt iron properly, the main source, if I recall correctly, was from meteors. So it was much rarer. The Daynes are a first men house, so presumably they were around when everyone was still using Bronze weapons. An iron sword when everyone else was just using bronze would give the wielder an advantage, but because it was extra special it still keeps that edge even against steel weapons. If Starfall is a valley it could even be that the valley was created by the same meteor, and the Daynes followed the trajectory of the shooting star, and Dawn was forged from some of the remnants.

Yes, I think it is obvious that GRRM has something along these lines in mind.  I've seen someone argue that Dawn can't be made of meteoric iron, or other meteoric metal, because it is made from a "stone".   But anyone who has seen a lump of meteoric iron in its natural form, can easily understand why it would be called a "stone".

[Craving Peaches]

23 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I've seen someone argue that Dawn can't be made of meteoric iron, or other meteoric metal, because it is made from a "stone".   But anyone who has seen a lump of meteoric iron in its natural form, can easily understand why it would be called a "stone".

I'm confused. Who was saying this? I thought the dispute was about the symbolism of Dawn. I don't think it could be a stone. Unless it was a magic stone. The description seems to suggest it's glassy, and obsidian is described as dragonglass. So maybe it could be made of 'inverted' white obsidian, but I don't really understand how that would work when making not just a knife or arrowhead, but a full sword. Stone would be too brittle.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

For everyone's reference:

Oh my God, you are an endless supply of WTF.

Go back to the comments I made and actually read them. Read them carefully. I never said "Dawn is evil." I never said "Dawn is a demon sword." I never said "The Wielder of the Legendary Sword is the Devil." Or any of the nonsense that you have been inferring.

You are the very soul of a modern academic.  You have an ego as big as a house; you are terrified of saying anything whose meaning can actually be nailed down; and you love handing out reading assignments to humble students like me.

As for the words you put in quotation marks, you realize I never wrote those words either, right?  You're just giving me attitude. 

As far as I can tell, the only thing you have said that can actually be nailed down, as a verifiable/falsifiable prediction, is that Jon will wield Dawn.  Which I appreciate.  But if you've said much more than that, I don't know what it is.  Feel free to add to that or elaborate.

As far as whether the price of wielding Dawn would be sinister or not, I addressed BOTH alternatives.  I wasn't sure what you had in mind so I covered both angles.  Funny that one who is ordering me to read your posts twice, isn't even bothering to read mine once.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I never mentioned "Satan," I mentioned Lucifer and Venus, specifically with respect to the concept of duality. I brought up that example as possible (I would say probable) name-checking of myths on GRRM's part to seed a theme that's already been building in his story proper, one that may indeed implicate the nature of Dawn.

I don't see why Dawn should be associated with the Morning Star at all.    Yes, it is associated with mornings.  Yes it is associated with a shooting star.  Yes it is associated with a southern constellation called "The Sword of the Morning", which is visible, as you would expect, at dawn, but that is a constellation composed of fixed stars.

What conclusions do you draw about the nature of Dawn?   Is it something verifiable/falsifiable that have some possibility of being proven right or wrong in future volumes?

What sort of duality do you have in mind?  Hot and cold?  Ice and fire?  Light and dark?  I'm guessing maybe not good and evil, since you sneer so vigorously at any mention of same, as well as at any Lucifer/Diabolos association.

 

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Let's move beyond the myths for a second and look at some characters in the story proper. I already mentioned Stannis and Dany, and Jon. These are characters who seem to be, or at least want to be, heroes of prophecy. They have real power, and actual good intentions, but they also have flaws and make some major mistakes. In fact, they all seem to be treading quite close to the realm of villainy. That doesn't mean they are villains. Or evil. It means they ride the line between heroism and villainy, despite their good intentions. And it also means that they are sometimes seen and sung as villains by others, perhaps cemented that way in the histories. They embody the Luciferian myth with this duality. GRRM's planting of morning stars and Lucifers in his world-building are just easter egg hints to indicate that this is a theme he wants to nudge us towards.

Well, now it sounds like you are talking about good/evil duality.  Also, when I mentioned Satan, you shot me down with a sneer of contempt.  What Luciferian myth are you talking about, if not the one about Satan?  In the Roman myth, I don't recall that Lucifer, son of Aurora, and his evening-star counterpart had any particular associations with good or evil or dualism of any kind (except maybe morning/evening dualism).

In Westeros,  dualism is championed by Melisandre.  She is opposed by Davos, who champions the Faith of the Seven, which is NOT a dualistic religion.  Whose side is GRRM on? 

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I mentioned Dawn as a possible component of this collection of nods toward the Lucifer/Venus myth, and others here agree with me.

About what exactly?  I've seen others say different things.  It beats the hell out of me whether they are saying the same thing you are saying.  Didn't seem like it to me.

As far as I know, the only coherent thing you have said about Dawn is that you think Jon will wield it.  Would you care to be a sport and make a few more verifiable/falsifiable predictions about how all this will play out?

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Feel free to disagree; I'm not saying it's strong evidence on its own, but: 1) it's a well established association on its own in our history of mythology, 2) it lines up with other themes and arcs in the books so far.

GRRM intending Dawn to be wrapped up in the Lucifer myth is not a hill I would die on.

I don't even know what you are trying to prove.  I thought we were supposed to be talking about Dawn.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

However, the larger theme of duality is an important one for the story, the myth is almost certainly referenced elsewhere (he has at least 4 Lucifers in his world), and it's a fair assumption that Dawn might be wrapped up in this theme. Not only did you think the very possibility of this to be absurd, you also seem to reject the fact that this theme of moral duality is even there.

I have no idea what you are accusing me of considering absurd.  I have no idea what specific theme of moral duality you accusing of thinking is not "even there".  I don't think you have any clear idea of the meaning of your own words.

I think that Dawn and Lightbringer are different swords.  I think Sandor will wield Dawn.  I don't think Jon is going to stab Dany with Dawn and turn it into Lightbringer (no, I'm not claiming you said that, but then again, you have not said much in the way of predictions).  I think Melisandre is a champion of dualism, and I think she is opposed by Davos, who champions the non-dualistic Faith.  I think GRRM is on Davos' side, and not on Mel's side.  I think GRRM's prior novel "The Armageddon Rag" was more-or-less a condemnation of dualism, and I expect things to play out similarly in ASOIAF.

 

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But back to Dawn. My suspicion is that all magic will have some unsavory root to it. Maybe not evil, but troubling, costly, unpredictable. Not for nothing is it described as a "sword without a hilt."

LOL.  Well, all the more reason why "magic" and Dawn are not the same.  Dawn was definitely described as a sword WITH a hilt.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

That all magic is blood and fire of some sort. That prophecy will bit your prick off every time. This reflects GRRM's beliefs on using magic in dramatic fiction:

Well, there's another distinction between magic and Dawn.  Swords only occasionally bite your own prick off.  And I would think it a rather difficult thing to do with a sword so large.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

• GRRM: “Fantasy needs magic in it, but I try to control the magic very strictly. You can have too much magic in fantasy very easily, and then it overwhelms everything and you lose all sense of realism. And I try to keep the magic magical — something mysterious and dark and dangerous, and something never completely understood. I don’t want to go down the route of having magic schools and classes where, if you say these six words, something will reliably happen. Magic doesn’t work that way. Magic is playing with forces you don’t completely understand. And perhaps with beings or deities you don’t completely understand. It should have a sense of peril about it.”

By the definition of "magic" that GRRM provides above, Dawn is not magic.  It's just a really good sword.

 

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

•  
• “Magic should never be the solution to the problem.My credo as a writer has always been Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech where he said, “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.”

Sandor becoming a True Knight sounds to me like it might be about the human heart at war with itself.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

• That transcends genre. That’s what good fiction, good drama is about: human beings in trouble.You have to make a decision, you have to do something, your life is in danger or your honor is in danger, or you're facing some crisis of the heart. To make a satisfying story, the protagonist has to solve the problem, or fail to solve the problem – but has to grapple with the problem in some kind of rational way, and the reader has to see that. And if the hero does win in the end, he has to feel that that victory is earned. The danger with magic is that the victory could be unearned. Suddenly you're in the last chapter and you wind up with a deus ex machina. The hero suddenly remembers that if he can just get some of this particular magical plant, then he can brew a potion and solve his problem. And that's a cheat. That feels very unsatisfying. It cheapens the work...Magic can ruin things. Magic should never be the solution. Magic can be part of the problem.”

So if Sandor decides to face off against a dragon, you won't consider that a brave act, merely because his sword is as good as Valyrian steel without actually being Valyrian steel?

Does GRRM think that Aragorn's sword Anduril ruined things in THE LORD OF THE RINGS? 

You keep giving me quotes about magic.  But Dawn is not "magic" as GRRM defines "magic" in these quotes.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Had to block that Gilbert dude. Annoying as hell; discussion was hitting dead end after dead end. Be happy to chat with anyone else on the topic though. Just don't be a weirdo, please.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm confused. Who was saying this? I thought the dispute was about the symbolism of Dawn. I don't think it could be a stone. Unless it was a magic stone. The description seems to suggest it's glassy, and obsidian is described as dragonglass. So maybe it could be made of 'inverted' white obsidian, but I don't really understand how that would work when making not just a knife or arrowhead, but a full sword. Stone would be too brittle.

Nobody was saying it here.  I was remembering a discussion from long ago.

The argument, which again I don't agree with, was based on a quote from TWOIAF, which mentions the first Dayne following the path of a falling star, and finding a "magic stone".   But I would suppose the "magic stone" to be a meteor; and I would think that Dawn was forged from meteoric metal.

[Gilbert Green]

42 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Had to block that Gilbert dude. Annoying as hell; discussion was hitting dead end after dead end. Be happy to chat with anyone else on the topic though. Just don't be a weirdo, please.

I've been kicked out of class.  I guess I'm off the hook, and don't have to carefully reread the Professor's posts.

[Gilbert Green]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:16 AM, Evolett said:

As far as Brienne is concerned, we also have the morning / evening allusions, this time in the name of two towns on Tarth - the former capital Morne (in the east) and the present location where Tarth is ruled from, Evenfall Hall. A former king of Tarth was known as the "Evenstar." Then there is the legend of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight, who hailed from Morne. The Perfect Knight sounds like someone who was "worthy."  Galladon received the sword, the Just Maid, from the Maiden, who "lost his heart to him." The Just Maid encompasses elements of both Dawn and Lightbringer. Brienne strives to be this "perfect knight."

If Tarth is also part of this Venus rising and falling star imagery, where is Aphrodite?

I don't think we need bring in Aphrodite.  In Westeros, the seven wanderers are sacred to the Seven.  Traditionally, in ancient times, the seven wanderers (planetes) are Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.  In Westeros, we would expect analogous wanderers to be identified with the Seven, with maybe different names in the North.  So we would have to match them up somehow with Father, Mother, Warrior, Smith, Maiden, Mother, and Crone.   We know that the red wanderer (Mars?) is identified with the Smith (red being the color of the forge, I suppose), though in the North it is also The Thief.  So would their Evening Star be identified with the Maiden?  Dunno.

Most of the morning/evening illusions in Tarth are simply reference to East and West.  For a typical resident of central Tarth, Morne lies in the direction that the sun rises, and Evenfall Hall lies in the direction that the sun sets.  "Evenfall" basically means "sunset".

Evenstar, however, does sound like it is analogous to "evening star".   If so, it is the only reference to a planet, other than the above-cited reference to the Seven Wanderers.

I don't know why the Just Maid needs to be identified with Dawn.  More likely it was just a really good sword (Valyrian steel?).  Maybe it was just iron instead of bronze.  It illustrates the idea that Galladon was so honorable that he would refuse to take unfair advantage of an opponent.  These ideals are the ideals of knighthood; which are associated with the Faith of the Seven; which in turn is associated with the Andals; which in turn seems to be the exclusive culture of Tarth.  Morne in particular was apparently an Andal settlement.

Supernatural maidens who hand out spiffy swords call to mind the Lady of the Lake, who gave the sword Excalibur to King Arthur, and the sword Galatine to Sir Gawaine.  But dark age Europe is full of legendary swords.

I do find it curious that many on Tarth claims descent from Galladon of Morne.  This would mean that a warrior from Tarth, including Brienne, would be a "Sword of Morne". 

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sandor becoming a True Knight sounds to me like it might be about the human heart at war with itself.

How do you imagine Sandor will come into possession of the sword?  Do you have any thoughts on House Dayne's words?

[Evolett]

14 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Most of the morning/evening illusions in Tarth are simply reference to East and West.  For a typical resident of central Tarth, Morne lies in the direction that the sun rises, and Evenfall Hall lies in the direction that the sun sets.  "Evenfall" basically means "sunset".

But that's what makes those references worth investigating, imo, precisely because East and West are the directions of sunrise and sunset, those two being crucial to the Long Night and return of dawn. That includes observations such as this: 

15 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I do find it curious that many on Tarth claims descent from Galladon of Morne.  This would mean that a warrior from Tarth, including Brienne, would be a "Sword of Morne". 

.. these references could be asking us to compare Dawn to the Just Maid in order to glean more information on Dawn. 

I find it interesting that GRRM has placed Casterly Rock in the west, the direction of nightfall and darkness for instance. Casterly Rock is basically an abode of "subterraenean" chambers, tunnels and hallways, even though it stands above ground. In the absense of artificial lighting in the form of torches, fires and oil lamps, it would be as dark as a cavern. Even then, most of it is probably shrouded in shadow. Perhaps windows have been carved into the rock to let in natural sunlight but I do not recall a mention of that. It's a castle suited to the westerly direction of nightfall. Since the Lannisters are Wardens of the West, which in the subtext might mean their role is to guard against the fall of a long night, it's ominous that their leadership is in disarray. 

 

I've entertained thoughts on the Daynes being in possession of both Dawn and Lightbringer, with Lightbringer being the weapon wielded by the Sword of the Evening. There's not much to go on but my speculations do include a double meaning to the "fallen star." 
Then there's Vorian Dayne, last King of the Torrentine and last known holder of the title Sword of the Evening, sent off to the Wall by Nymeria. Kind of a good place for Lightbringer to be, right where it's needed. 

My third suspicion centers around Gerold Dayne, the Darkstar. He seems irritated because everyone remembers the Sword of the Morning and referrs to himself as "of the night," a possible allusion to the Sword of the Evening title.  Slicing off Myrcella's ear was pretty drastic and if he intended to actually kill her, certainly monstrous. Could this be a "Nissa Nissa moment" and thus the whole scenario informing us on Lightbringer as a Sword of the Evening? Anyway, as I said, it's simply speculation on my part.  

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

I've entertained thoughts on the Daynes being in possession of both Dawn and Lightbringer, with Lightbringer being the weapon wielded by the Sword of the Evening. There's not much to go on but my speculations do include a double meaning to the "fallen star." 

Then there's Vorian Dayne, last King of the Torrentine and last known holder of the title Sword of the Evening, sent off to the Wall by Nymeria. Kind of a good place for Lightbringer to be, right where it's needed. 

The 6 kings Nymeria sent to the wall are a sinister sounding bunch.  After Vorian, the remaining 5 are: a madman; a demon-worshipping werevulture; a dude called "Bloodroyal"; Lucifer king of Brimstone & lord of Hellgate Hall; and a blind king "feared for his cunning" (implying sorcery).

"Sword" in the context of the titles "The Sword of the Morning" and "The Sword of the Evening", basically means "swordsman" or "swordsperson".  It need not be associated with any particular sword.  "The Sword of the Morning" is associated with a particular sword called "Dawn"; but the same need not be true of "TheSword of the Evening";

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

My third suspicion centers around Gerold Dayne, the Darkstar. He seems irritated because everyone remembers the Sword of the Morning and referrs to himself as "of the night," a possible allusion to the Sword of the Evening title. 

"Darkstar" and "of the night" don't quite fit a Morning Star/Evening Star dichotomy.  The Morning Star/Evening Star is, after all, a single wandering star.  The one is no more bright than the other, and each is visible under identical lighting conditions.  Each is equally "of the day"; each is equally "of the night"

Morning and Evening, however, can be seen as being more closely associated with Light and Dark, as metaphors for Good and Evil.  "Morning" is often used in the sense of "early day"; and evening in the sense of "early night".

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

Slicing off Myrcella's ear was pretty drastic and if he intended to actually kill her, certainly monstrous. Could this be a "Nissa Nissa moment" and thus the whole scenario informing us on Lightbringer as a Sword of the Evening? Anyway, as I said, it's simply speculation on my part.  

I don't call it drastic.  I call it evil. 

I think he did intend to kill her, and moreover, I think he succeeded.  There was poison on that blade.  We saw him apply it with the oilstone.  He says he was "weaned on venom" and we are told he is a worse "viper" than Oberyn.  That child was doomed as soon as the blade touched her.  He rode off, without bothering to strike again, because the job was done. 

And before you insist that Myrcella still lives, remember that she has a double that Doran can use.

True Knights defend maidens.  False Knights murder maidens.

Gerold Dayne's sword:  "It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies."  But I don't think it has anything to do with Lightbringer.  After all, he is "of the night", nor "of the light".   I'm sure it's a damned good sword, but I think the only thing extra-special about it is the poison.

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

How do you imagine Sandor will come into possession of the sword?  Do you have any thoughts on House Dayne's words?

I don't have any clear ideas.  I think GRRM said that Dawn was at Starfall at some point, but IIRC, that was quite long ago.   Time passes, and people and things need not remain static.  I think that Ned Dayne will have some role in bestowing it on Sandor.  I also had an idea that Allyria Dayne might show up at the Vale Tourney, and have Dawn with her.  But I really don't know.  All sorts of things can happen when months and years go by without news of the whereabouts of a particular person or item.

[Evolett]

19 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I think he did intend to kill her, and moreover, I think he succeeded.  There was poison on that blade.  We saw him apply it with the oilstone.  He says he was "weaned on venom" and we are told he is a worse "viper" than Oberyn.  That child was doomed as soon as the blade touched her.  He rode off, without bothering to strike again, because the job was done.

Sounds plausible to me. If so, I wonder how Doran will deal with the backlash that is sure to come sometime. 

 

27 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Gerold Dayne's sword:  "It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies."  But I don't think it has anything to do with Lightbringer.  After all, he is "of the night", nor "of the light".   I'm sure it's a damned good sword, but I think the only thing extra-special about it is the poison.

I wasn't suggesting his sword is Lightbringer, just that Gerold may fancy himself a holder of the title Sword of the Evening. That title would be fitting for him if Voran as the last holder was as sinister a character as Gerold is. 

If the legend is true, Azor Ahai murdered his wife, however willing the tale claims her to have been, making him as dark a character as Gerold is. 

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

Sounds plausible to me. If so, I wonder how Doran will deal with the backlash that is sure to come sometime.

He thinks that her death makes war inevitable.  So he plans to attack with surprise before the ruse is discovered.  Which means that Darkstar is off the hook (he wanted war, he got war, and now his services are needed), and Balon Swan & Co. are in deep doodoo.

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

I wasn't suggesting his sword is Lightbringer, just that Gerold may fancy himself a holder of the title Sword of the Evening. That title would be fitting for him if Voran as the last holder was as sinister a character as Gerold is. 

Definitely plausible.