Dawn

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I think that Ned Dayne will have some role in bestowing it on Sandor. 

I have this sense as well.  Most likely it will travel with Ned Dayne to the Brotherhood without Banners at the Inn of the Crossroads. Sandor is practically right there, at the Quiet Isle.

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Evolett said:

But that's what makes those references worth investigating, imo, precisely because East and West are the directions of sunrise and sunset, those two being crucial to the Long Night and return of dawn.

I tweaked on this as well.  I wonder if the sword originally came out of Essos and if there is connective tissue between the Dawn sword and the Faith of the Seven.  Their lore says that the Seven were stars that came down from the sky and walked the earth.  So is Starfall the place where the meteorite fell and was forged, or something to do with one of the original Seven?  It's curious that Faith Militant have crystals in the pommels of their swords.  That brings to mind the Sword of the Morning constellation.  

If it made of Meteoric iron, then this is Damascus steel but it's described as smooth as milkglass.  Damascus steel is highly patterned full of whorls and swirls.    That fits the description of Valyrian steel except for the colour of the metal..

What I tweak on are the whorls and swirls.  That usually indicated magic of some kind in Martin's world.  Here's an example:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Dany left him behind, entering a stairwell. She began to climb. Before long her legs were aching. She recalled that the House of the Undying Ones had seemed to have no towers.

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

 

And another:

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

 

I still think there is something magical to this sword.  Ned's vision of it as alive with light seems to have some connective tissue with Jon's description of Stannis' sword creating a storm of Light.  Melisandre's trickery; but she has some notion of the light the sword should produce.  

I'm just not convinced that the Dawn sword and whatever the Red Flaming sword turns out to be are the same thing.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I still think there is something magical to this sword.  Ned's vision of it as alive with light seems to have some connective tissue with Jon's description of Stannis' sword creating a storm of Light.

Dany's vision of her ancient ancestors suggests a connection as well:

"Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade."

As others have pointed out, the mention of opal, amethyst, tourmaline, and jade-colored eyes not only distinguishes them from simple Valyrian heritage (as that would only be amethyst), but the precious stone language corresponds to the God Emperors from the Great Empire of the Dawn. And the rulers of that "Dawn" empire had swords of pale fire.

[TheBlackSwan]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Dany's vision of her ancient ancestors suggests a connection as well:

"Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade."

As others have pointed out, the mention of opal, amethyst, tourmaline, and jade-colored eyes not only distinguishes them from simple Valyrian heritage (as that would only be amethyst), but the precious stone language corresponds to the God Emperors from the Great Empire of the Dawn. And the rulers of that "Dawn" empire had swords of pale fire.

Valyrians are known for their purples eyes but that doesn't mean they only had purple eyes.
She has a crazy dream of her Valyrian ancestors and because it's a crazy dream, Martin uses the colours of fantasy:

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Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis lazuli. Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab. Fantasy tastes of habaneros and honey, cinnamon and cloves, rare red meat and wines as sweet as summer. Reality is beans and tofu, and ashes at the end. Reality is the strip malls of Burbank, the smokestacks of Cleveland, a parking garage in Newark. Fantasy is the towers of Minas Tirith, the ancient stones of Gormenghast, the halls of Camelot. Fantasy flies on the wings of Icarus, reality on Southwest Airlines. Why do our dreams become so much smaller when they finally come true?

We read fantasy to find the colors again, I think.
https://georgerrmartin.com/about-george/on-writing-essays/on-fantasy-by-george-r-r-martin/

 

Valyria sorcery is rooted in fire and blood magic so it's logical that their magical steel would be made of fire and blood magic.
The Others represents the ice of the tilte and the Dragonlords, the fire. The Others have the freezing swords and the Dragonlords the burning swords.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Valyrians are known for their purples eyes but that doesn't mean they only had purple eyes.

Well, while that could be true, everything we've known about Valyrian features from the books indicates that the mark of old Valyria is specifically purple eyes.

If you can find instances in the books where this is not the case, I would be interested to see them.

 

1 hour ago, TheBlackSwan said:

She has a crazy dream of her Valyrian ancestors and because it's a crazy dream, Martin uses the colours of fantasy:

I agree that GRRM loves using the colors of fantasy. But that's not a convincing argument that the crazy imagery was merely crazy fantastical language.

Should we dismiss Dany's visions in the House of the Undying as just hallucinations? Maybe. But most readers take them as well-seeded foreshadowing, glimpses of the past or future that will eventually have more of a role in the story proper. We already know that Dany's vision of a dead wolf king wasn't just fantastical imagery.

If it were simply the use of opal and amethyst, tourmaline, and jade...sure, that's just fantasy writing. I think there's a passage from Xaro Xhoan Daxos that probably fits that type of flowery imagery using those stones.

But this was an image of rulers who look like Valyrian dragon riders, with eyes that connect them to the Great Empire of the Dawn, and with swords of pale fire that sound more like Dawn than Lightbringer.

Regardless of what you may think of this one passage, I think it's safe to say that the deep history of Asshai and whatever made it cursed will find its way into the story proper somehow. Not only has it been set up as a place of major interest since Book 1, and teased in later books and especially TWOIAF, but it likely has to do with the original birth of dragons, and the original Long Night. The Great Empire of the Dawn will likely tie into this, and so it makes sense for GRRM to seed the eventual reveal of this deeper history with the imagery he uses.

Also: remember that Sam reads about the Last Hero wielding a sword of "dragonsteel." Is the Last Hero the first wielder of Dawn? Maybe that's not so clear, but this is a Northern Westerosi legend from their Bronze Age talking about dragons and steel. So it's not just a blurring of East and West, it also goes against the idea that the Valyrians were the first to master dragons.

[TheBlackSwan]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, while that could be true, everything we've known about Valyrian features from the books indicates that the mark of old Valyria is specifically purple eyes.

If you can find instances in the books where this is not the case, I would be interested to see them.

Martin already talk about that saying that swede are known for their blue eyes but not every swede has blue eyes nor every person with blue eyes is a swede.
I'm sure you already know some Valyrians that doesn't have purple eyes.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But this was an image of rulers who look like Valyrian dragon riders, with eyes that connect them to the Great Empire of the Dawn, and with swords of pale fire that sound more like Dawn than Lightbringer.

I agree that GRRM loves using the colors of fantasy. But that's not a convincing argument that the crazy imagery was merely crazy fantastical language.

Should we dismiss Dany's visions in the House of the Undying as just hallucinations? Maybe. But most readers take them as well-seeded foreshadowing, glimpses of the past or future that will eventually have more of a role in the story proper. We already know that Dany's vision of a dead wolf king wasn't just fantastical imagery.

If it were simply the use of opal and amethyst, tourmaline, and jade...sure, that's just fantasy writing. I think there's a passage from Xaro Xhoan Daxos that probably fits that type of flowery imagery using those stones.

But this was an image of rulers who look like Valyrian dragon riders, with eyes that connect them to the Great Empire of the Dawn, and with swords of pale fire that sound more like Dawn than Lightbringer.

The Golden Empire of Yi-Ti has orange, grey, green emperor, that's the colour of reality whereas it's ancestors, the fantastic Great Empire of the Dawn has the topaz, onyx, jade emperor, the colour of fantasy.
Dany has a crazy dream and instead describing her ancestor with the colours of reality, Martin uses the colours of fantasy.
Pale fire sound like a heated blade which is what Lightbringer does.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Regardless of what you may think of this one passage, I think it's safe to say that the deep history of Asshai and whatever made it cursed will find its way into the story proper somehow. Not only has it been set up as a place of major interest since Book 1, and teased in later books and especially TWOIAF, but it likely has to do with the original birth of dragons, and the original Long Night. The Great Empire of the Dawn will likely tie into this, and so it makes sense for GRRM to seed the eventual reveal of this deeper history with the imagery he uses.

Seems that Asshai will remain a mysterious ancient city. No character will go there and we might have a peak at it through Melisandre's memories but even that is not a certainty.
I don't see why the GEOTD would be to the story or even to Asshai when it was never mentioned in the main books, is not even important in TWIAF and no characters will go in that area.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Also: remember that Sam reads about the Last Hero wielding a sword of "dragonsteel." Is the Last Hero the first wielder of Dawn? Maybe that's not so clear, but this is a Northern Westerosi legend from their Bronze Age talking about dragons and steel. So it's not just a blurring of East and West, it also goes against the idea that the Valyrians were the first to master dragons.

"dragonsteel" has no dragons in it and we know that because Martin already gave us the answer through "dragonglass":

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Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?
Martin: Yes, there is a reason.
Shaw: I wasn't sure if you had added something to obsidian for the fantasy.
Martin: I've given it magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn't necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it's a little bit different.
http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm/

____________________

Armen crossed his arms. "Obsidian does not burn."
"Dragonglass," Pate said. "The smallfolk call it dragonglass." Somehow that seemed important.
 A Feast for Crows - Prologue

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"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass."
 A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

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Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."
"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.
 A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

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"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."
 A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

____________________

". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"
 A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

 

Obsidian is a volcanic glass that contains fire magic, a glass that can burn without deteriorating, melting the Others, a glass that can generate fire like a dragon thus "dragonglass".
When the Last Hero faced the Others, his swords shatter against their freezing blades. He finally made it to the Children and together made the famous dragonsteel sword.
If a glass that generates fire is call dragonglass then a dragonsteel would be a steel that do the same thing, a steel that generates fire, that can burn without deteriorating and melting the Others. That's how the Last Hero could face and slay the Others, with a burning blade.
We know one blade that can do that:

Quote

The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.
A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Azor Ahai (or the others names given to the hero from the Asshai legend) and his red sword are the Last Hero and his dragonsteel sword.
A magical steel made of fire and blood magic, that's not Dawn, that's Valyrian steel.  Like Marwayn said "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire".
The first people who made VS was the Last Hero and the COTF.
The COTF fits the description of the ancient nameless people who taught Valyrians magic and how to tame the dragons.
The COTF are part of the story, they are characters we can't say the same about the GEOTD.
Valyriansteel is not the same as Dawn and I refer you to my comment on the first of this topic where Martin said that Dawn is more potent than VS.
Dawn has unknown magical properties from the metal of a fallen whereas VS/DS/Lightbringer has the same magical properties as dragonglass, a volcanic glass.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

37 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Martin already talk about that saying that swede are known for their blue eyes but not every swede has blue eyes nor every person with blue eyes is a swede.

Can you provide this quote for me? As it's written here, it sounds like he's just making a point about trait dominance. 

One thing we know is that, in-story, purple eyes denote Valyrian blood. It's established early on:

"Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt." --DANY I, AGOT

Bastards or children from mixed marriages may have different colors, but purple is the trait of the Valyrian dragon rider when the blood is kept in the family. 

So here's a question: having established that, what's the point of raising the notion of ancient Valyrians with different colored eyes? The notion of "fantasy language" doesn't cut it here, because if so it would be a pointless distraction. Eye color has been established as important for Valyrians.

Yes, the Yi Tish empire sounds a lot less fantastical than the GEotD. They also seem like a normal human civilization rather than one that's imbued with actual magical power. Maybe that's a relevant detail for Dany, who found herself born again in flame with freshly hatched living dragons.

Who was it who first birthed dragons? It's not settled, but there's this:

"In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals." --TWOIAF

and this:

"He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise." --Bran III, AGOT

In Asshai. Beneath the sunrise...or, the "dawn."

Even if dragonsteel just means fire-imbued, that's evidence that fire magic was necessary to defeat the Others. The myths of East and West seem to converge in ways we don't yet know.

Also, Lightbringer is the "red" sword of heroes. That doesn't sound like a sword of pale fire. 

You seem to be saying that the very-specific color language of the eyes in that passage was just "fantasy" language without any real meaning, and yet the "pale fire" in the same passage actually means red flame. That doesn't sound consistent to me.

[Evolett]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm just not convinced that the Dawn sword and whatever the Red Flaming sword turns out to be are the same thing.

No, I do not expect them to be the same either. Both a red flaming sword and those of pale fire (like the ones in Dany's dream) and Dawn, said to be a white sword, can be "alive with light." Dawn is said to be pale as milkglass. I take it the sword has no colour, unlike the Valyrian Steel swords. 

Quote

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.  

Also, dragonglass and milkglass contrast each other in colour, one predominantly black and the other the color of milk most likely. I would expect dragonsteel to be dark as Valyrian Steel even if they aren't the same material.

 

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

So is Starfall the place where the meteorite fell and was forged, or something to do with one of the original Seven?

It wouldn't surprise me if the "first Dayne" turns out to have been one of the original Seven. We tend to compartmentalize the Andals and FM according to their time of arrival in Westeros but the Andals of Essos had ancestors too. I think its possible that families such as the Hightowers and Daynes actually derive from ancient Andal stock, from a time before the Andals came to be known by that name.