Why did Stannis not tell Robert about the Incest or warn him his Life could be in Danger?

[Craving Peaches]

I am confused why Stannis, if he was so dutiful, did not warn Robert that his life could be in danger, and that he suspected the incest. And I know he left to save his own skin, but surely as the duty-obsessed man he is (or at least the duty-obsessed man he is portrayed as by people here) he should still put his duty to his king first? Or does he selectively apply this duty rule to everyone but himself? Is he just being a big hypocrite here?

Also, why was he annoyed so much that he didn't get made Hand? In Stannis' own words,

Quote

"Lord Eddard did his duty, I will not deny it. Did I ever do less? I should have been Robert's Hand."

what he did was his duty. So why is he expecting special rewards? Ned also did his duty, why should he not get to be hand? Why should Stannis get to be Hand over him? If they have both performed their duty, why should Robert pick Stannis over Ned? Because Stannis is his brother?

I don't get it...

This is Stannis' reasoning for not telling about the incest.

Quote

"My brother's regard for me was never more than dutiful," said Stannis. "From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, whom he loved."

But I'm not sure I buy it. It doesn't negate the fact that he was still obliged to tell Robert. Even if Robert wouldn't listen, duty dictates Stannis still has to tell him, as far as I can see.

These are Ned's thoughts on the matter of the incest.

Quote

This was something else: poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized.

 

And yet, he knew he could not keep silent. He had a duty to Robert, to the realm, to the shade of Jon Arryn … and to Bran, who surely must have stumbled on some part of the truth. Why else would they have tried to slay him?

So why did Stannis go off to Dragonstone, failing to tell Robert (and also failing his duty to attend council meetings but that's besides the point)? Surely he had exactly the same duty as Ned did - to inform Robert.

I don't understand why. Was he just being spiteful towards Robert? Was he being a hypocrite? Did he want Robert to die with no true heirs so he could be king? Or am I missing something?

It just seems totally at odds with Stannis' character, based on how all the others describe him and he describes himself.

[Canon Claude]

Stannis never told Robert because he knew Robert wouldn’t listen to him. And that’s in character for the both of them. Neither brother likes the other, and Robert regularly dismissed Stannis’ concerns when it came to corruption or moral quandaries. And Stannis had the most to gain if Robert’s kids were proven to be illegitimate. 
The question isn’t why Stannis didn’t tell Robert. It’s why he didn’t tell Eddard Stark. After Jon Arryn died, Eddard is the only man who could tell Robert the truth about his kids. Stannis knew that, but I guess he let his resentment of Ned get in the way. Makes sense, really, because Ned is like a more palatable version of Stannis who balances Robert out.

[Alden Rothack]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am confused why Stannis, if he was so dutiful, did not warn Robert that his life could be in danger, and that he suspected the incest. And I know he left to save his own skin, but surely as the duty-obsessed man he is (or at least the duty-obsessed man he is portrayed as by people here) he should still put his duty to his king first? Or does he selectively apply this duty rule to everyone but himself? Is he just being a big hypocrite here?

Also, why was he annoyed so much that he didn't get made Hand? In Stannis' own words,

what he did was his duty. So why is he expecting special rewards? Ned also did his duty, why should he not get to be hand? Why should Stannis get to be Hand over him? If they have both performed their duty, why should Robert pick Stannis over Ned? Because Stannis is his brother?

I don't get it...

This is Stannis' reasoning for not telling about the incest.

But I'm not sure I buy it. It doesn't negate the fact that he was still obliged to tell Robert. Even if Robert wouldn't listen, duty dictates Stannis still has to tell him, as far as I can see.

These are Ned's thoughts on the matter of the incest.

So why did Stannis go off to Dragonstone, failing to tell Robert (and also failing his duty to attend council meetings but that's besides the point)? Surely he had exactly the same duty as Ned did - to inform Robert.

I don't understand why. Was he just being spiteful towards Robert? Was he being a hypocrite? Did he want Robert to die with no true heirs so he could be king? Or am I missing something?

It just seems totally at odds with Stannis' character, based on how all the others describe him and he describes himself.

Stannis most likely did tell Robert his life was in danger and he ignored it, once Jon Arryn died and it was believed by many that the Lannisters were behind it then his duty to the brother who ignored and slighted him was less important than his duty to survive and protect his child, he could say nothing further to Robert that he would believe and he knew it

Ned and Stannis together could be persuaded him but not Stannis alone

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Canon Claude said:

Stannis never told Robert because he knew Robert wouldn’t listen to him. And that’s in character for the both of them. Neither brother likes the other, and Robert regularly dismissed Stannis’ concerns when it came to corruption or moral quandaries. And Stannis had the most to gain if Robert’s kids were proven to be illegitimate. 

That would make sense if it weren't for the fact that Stannis and Davos speak about how dutiful he is supposed to be. Not informing Robert is not dutiful. He was obliged to inform Robert because Robert was his king, even if he didn't like him or thought he wouldn't listen.

2 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

The question isn’t why Stannis didn’t tell Robert. It’s why he didn’t tell Eddard Stark. After Jon Arryn died, Eddard is the only man who could tell Robert the truth about his kids. Stannis knew that, but I guess he let his resentment of Ned get in the way. Makes sense, really, because Ned is like a more palatable version of Stannis who balances Robert out.

This is a likely explanation, but for it to work, Stannis can't be duty above all. So it seems he is being selective in how he applies his duty rule...

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

then his duty to the brother who ignored and slighted him was less important than his duty to survive and protect his child

Maybe, but duty to the King seems to be the supreme duty...

He could also have told Robert and then instantly run away. Instead he just left.

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Maybe, but duty to the King seems to be the supreme duty...

He could also have told Robert and then instantly run away. Instead he just left.

When over half the kingsguard are working for Cersei,

he would have been killed on the spot and the mountain sent to Elia his wife and daughter

Besides his supreme duty if he has one is to see that the throne isn't stolen not to the brother who left him and Jon Arryn to rule his kingdom while he drank and whored his way to an early grave

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

When over half the kingsguard are working for Cersei,

he would have been killed on the spot and the mountain sent to Elia his wife and daughter

He could have sent his wife and daughter to safety in Dragonstone first.

11 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Besides his supreme duty if he has one is to see that the throne isn't stolen not to the brother who left him and Jon Arryn to rule his kingdom while he drank and whored his way to an early grave

His supreme duty is to the king. It doesn't matter if that king is incompetent, lazy, or even mad, given that he felt that choosing between Robert and Aerys was hard, the quality of the King clearly doesn't factor into it for him. And even if it did, he would still have a legal duty to tell Robert, regardless of whether Robert would listen to him or not, if it put his life in danger, if Robert was a bad king etc.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Craving Peaches
Spelling

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He could have sent his wife and daughter to safety in Dragonstone first.

His supreme duty is to the king. It doesn't matter if that king is incompetent, lazy, or even mad, given that he felt that choosing between Robert and Aerys was hard, the quality of the King clearly doesn't factor into it for him. And even if it did, he would still have a legal duty to tell Robert, regardless of whether Robert would listen to him or not, if it put his life in danger, if Robert was a bad king etc.

Except in this case Robert is the lazy incompetent king and his duty is to his family over him.

Stannis does not have the duty to get himself and his family murdered telling Robert

a vassal has a duty to his liege but his liege also has a duty to reward good service and listen to his advice

Stannis went beyond what was expected before for Robert and not only got no reward but actually lost as much or more than some of Roberts enemies

Stannis at this point point owes him nothing but richly earned contempt.

[Canon Claude]

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

This is a likely explanation, but for it to work, Stannis can't be duty above all. So it seems he is being selective in how he applies his duty rule...

He’s hardly the first hypocrite to appear in this series. Hell, almost everyone is guilty of hypocrisy in this series, even your beloved King Renly.

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am confused why Stannis, if he was so dutiful, did not warn Robert that his life could be in danger, and that he suspected the incest. And I know he left to save his own skin, but surely as the duty-obsessed man he is (or at least the duty-obsessed man he is portrayed as by people here) he should still put his duty to his king first? Or does he selectively apply this duty rule to everyone but himself? Is he just being a big hypocrite here?

Also, why was he annoyed so much that he didn't get made Hand? In Stannis' own words,

what he did was his duty. So why is he expecting special rewards? Ned also did his duty, why should he not get to be hand? Why should Stannis get to be Hand over him? If they have both performed their duty, why should Robert pick Stannis over Ned? Because Stannis is his brother?

I don't get it...

This is Stannis' reasoning for not telling about the incest.

But I'm not sure I buy it. It doesn't negate the fact that he was still obliged to tell Robert. Even if Robert wouldn't listen, duty dictates Stannis still has to tell him, as far as I can see.

These are Ned's thoughts on the matter of the incest.

So why did Stannis go off to Dragonstone, failing to tell Robert (and also failing his duty to attend council meetings but that's besides the point)? Surely he had exactly the same duty as Ned did - to inform Robert.

I don't understand why. Was he just being spiteful towards Robert? Was he being a hypocrite? Did he want Robert to die with no true heirs so he could be king? Or am I missing something?

It just seems totally at odds with Stannis' character, based on how all the others describe him and he describes himself.

Stannis told Jon Arryn about the incest, and likely about his suspicions that Robert was in danger. Since Robert was doing squat as king to start with, going to the Hand who was actually ruling was the better move. Since Jon died, and since Robert almost immediately went North to recruit Ned, leaving Stannis alone and isolated, he likely figured that if Jon was murdered, he was also in danger, since he was assuming that Cersei was responsible for Arryn's death. It's not an unreasonable conclusion. As to Stannis's own neurosis regarding Robert, Renly and Ned, that's part of what makes him a fascinating and even relatable character. He knew Robert would listen to Ned, as he never listened to Stannis. Who knows? Maybe Ned would discover the truth of Cersei's treachery (as he eventually did). 

Should Stannis have answered Ned's call to return to Kings Landing? Sure, probably. It's fair to critisize his actions on that front. I do not believe it is fair, however, to argue that this is proof of Stannis being a hypocrite, or that he wanted his brother to die. He'd already done the duty that was required of him. Fleeing Kings Landing when it looked like his life might be in danger is not an immoral act; it's self-preservation.

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Fleeing Kings Landing when it looked like his life might be in danger is not an immoral act; it's self-preservation.

I don't think it's immoral, I just think it's a bit hypocritical of him to go on about how dutiful he is given he didn't do his duty to Robert. I'd have no problem if he admitted he shirked his duty for self-preservation in this instance.

[Craving Peaches]

24 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

He’s hardly the first hypocrite to appear in this series. Hell, almost everyone is guilty of hypocrisy in this series, even your beloved King Renly.

Oh I know the series is full of them. It doesn't make Stannis unique. I don't even hate him for being a hypocrite. He has already done a far worse crime in my view. But please explain what Good King Renly did that was so hypocritical. 

[Nathan Stark]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think it's immoral, I just think it's a bit hypocritical of him to go on about how dutiful he is given he didn't do his duty to Robert. I'd have no problem if he admitted he shirked his duty for self-preservation in this instance.

But he did do his duty to Robert. He told Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, Robert's Hand. It was only after Jon died and Robert left the city that Stannis fled. So he's not actually being hypocrticial here.

[Craving Peaches]

46 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Except in this case Robert is the lazy incompetent king and his duty is to his family over him.

Robert is his family.

46 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Stannis does not have the duty to get himself and his family murdered telling Robert

Strictly speaking he does. I have no problem that he left, due to self-preservation, but he can't shirk his duty and then still go on about how dutiful he is. Not to mention he probably expects all his men to give their lives for his cause. I doubt if a deserter told Stannis he left for self-preservation it would be accepted.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Stannis most likely did tell Robert his life was in danger and he ignored it,

He did not.

 

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

he would have been killed on the spot and the mountain sent to Elia his wife and daughter

Stannis never says and or hints that he feared for his life or that of his family.

This is 100% a fan theory.

In fact we know that Stannis stayed in King's Landing after Arryn's death, only leaving because Robert chooses Ned as his next Hand of the King.

 

23 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

He'd already done the duty that was required of him.

Did he now?

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said:

But he did do his duty to Robert. He told Jon Arryn, the Hand of the King, Robert's Hand. It was only after Jon died and Robert left the city that Stannis fled. So he's not actually being hypocrticial here.

His duty is to inform the king though, as Jon Arryn is dead so the King is not aware of the threat, surely the next thing duty dictates is to inform the king himself?. And by fleeing the city he is also failing in his duty to attend council meetings and perform his duties as master of ships. I have no problem with it, were it not for the fact that Stannis goes on about how dutiful he is.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

In fact we know that Stannis stayed in King's Landing after Arryn's death, only leaving because Robert chooses Ned as his next Hand of the King.

So he essentially went to Dragonstone to sulk?

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Robert is his family.

Strictly speaking he does. I have no problem that he left, due to self-preservation, but he can't shirk his duty and then still go on about how dutiful he is. Not to mention he probably expects all his men to give their lives for his cause. I doubt if a deserter told Stannis he left for self-preservation it would be accepted.

since he accepts that very choice from the narrow sea and stormlords who abandon him and pled for cerseis mercy after the blackwater then yes

those who stayed were either loyal to a fault (Davos), not likely to receive mercy (Florents) or Queens men

Stannis is dutiful to a fault but even he needs hope (though he would deny it)

[Canon Claude]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Oh I know the series is full of them. It doesn't make Stannis unique. I don't even hate him for being a hypocrite. He has already done a far worse crime in my view. But please explain what Good King Renly did that was so hypocritical. 

Renly talks a big game of liking Ned, but he still abandoned him because Ned wouldn’t give him what he wanted. He could have helped prevent the Lannisters from taking over, but instead he runs away south and spends his days feasting while the realm tears itself apart. He also mocks and derides Stannis for going to war against him when that’s exactly what he’s doing as well. And the people who cry foul over Stannis killing his brother conveniently forget that Renly was going to have Stannis killed too. 
 

Not that I’m going to defend Stannis either. I dislike almost all the Baratheons that we’ve gotten to know so far.

[Nathan Stark]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Oh I know the series is full of them. It doesn't make Stannis unique. I don't even hate him for being a hypocrite. He has already done a far worse crime in my view. But please explain what Good King Renly did that was so hypocritical. 

Terrorist fake king Renly absolutely knew Cersei was boinking her brother. He says he didn't know, and accused Stannis of making the story up. But his actions prove the lie. He and Loras were plotting to marry Margaery to Robert, and that would only be possible with Cersei out of the picture. Let's be honest here; Cersei and Jaime's infidelity was the worst kept secret in Kings Landing, and only three people ever really bothered to try and prove that to the King: Ned, Jon Arryn, and Stannis. Renly didn't do anything at all to warn the King about Cersei's betrayal. Renly's actions were only ever to benefit Renly. That's what makes him a hypocrite.