Why did Stannis not tell Robert about the Incest or warn him his Life could be in Danger?

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

we don't know that it only happens with Baratheons, there are lots of dark haired people, the greyjoys for example

It's heavily implied there are no blonde Baratheons in GRRM's world. We even have a history book now and I don't recall any of them in that either.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 minutes ago, sifth said:

It's heavily implied there are no blonde Baratheons in GRRM's world. We even have a history book now and I don't recall any of them in that either.

Alden is saying we don't know it ONLY happens with Baratheons, not that there are blonde Baratheons...

[chrisdaw]

At the time of their investigating from the perspective of Stannis, JA and Ned there's no reason to think Robert is in any greater danger. That's something that looks obvious only after the fact from an omnipresent reader POV.

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

JA and Ned there's no reason to think Robert is in any greater danger.

And yet he was preparing himself for a war of succesion.

Stealing the Royal Fleet, hiring sellswords even half a year before Robert died, starting feeling the Stormlords...

[Craving Peaches]

42 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

At the time of their investigating from the perspective of Stannis, JA and Ned there's no reason to think Robert is in any greater danger.

As soon as Jon Arryn is murdered there is. So why didn't Stannis tell Robert then?

[Nathan Stark]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I had a look as well but all I could find were other people's theories on Renly. I could be wrong but I am almost certain it was something I read on this board, where someone had linked or copy pasted something where the answer was no. I will keep looking, though I did not bookmark the page so it might take a while.

I just can't see how he wouldn't have told Robert in that case. Because it almost guarantees his plan to marry Margaery would work. And Renly doesn't seem to like Cersei or Joffrey, he thinks Cersei is trying to kill him, so if he had this information I don't see why he would keep it to himself, it looks to serve him far better if he reveals it as soon as possible.

The whole issue with your argument is that you are taking Renly at face value. But I do not believe him when he says he didn't know about the incest. He did know about the incest, chose not to tell his king about it upon learning of it, and was lying through his teeth about it during his confrontation with Stannis. Likely he would have told Robert the truth eventually if Robert had lived, because that's the only way he and the Tyrells could have removed Cersei and her children from the line of succession.

I find it so odd that, in a series of books where we are told not to let characters appearences and public personas distract us from their inner nature, so many readers let themselves get taken in by Renly's appearance and persona. He was on the Small Counsil for years. He was plotting with the Tyrells to set Cersei aside and make Margaery Queen. He chose to abandon his king's chosen Regent in his hour of need rather than helping the Regent fulfill the task given to him by the king. He crowned himself king, in violation of the laws of feudal succession after his king died, putting himself above his older brother. And people think that, with this self-serving, opportunistic, hypocritical track record established in the text, it's out of the question that Renly knew of the twincest? 

Lol.

Renly knew what his duty was. And at every turn, he chose not to do it. Renly was only ever out for Renly.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And yet he was preparing himself for a war of succesion.

Stealing the Royal Fleet, hiring sellswords even half a year before Robert died, starting feeling the Stormlords...

Where is it in the text that he's preparing for a war of succession?

46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

As soon as Jon Arryn is murdered there is. So why didn't Stannis tell Robert then?

No there isn't, it's just more reason for Stannis to think himself in danger. Why Stannis didn't tell Robert is explained in the text, you quoted it.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

it's out of the question that Renly knew of the twincest? 

I think he didn't know because I find it illogical that he wouldn't tell Robert if he knew. Because it would be essentially an instant win for his Margaery plan, and get Cersei, whom he doesn't like, out of the way. Renly really doesn't have a reason to sit on this information if he does know, because the sooner he reveals it, the sooner his plan progresses, and the sooner he can get rid of Cersei.

8 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

He was on the Small Counsil for years.

He's twenty-one years old so unless Robert made him master of laws as soon as he came of age he's not been on it for more than a few years.

10 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

He chose to abandon his king's chosen Regent in his hour of need rather than helping the Regent fulfill the task given to him by the king.

Because the plan Ned wanted to follow was a suicide plan. 

11 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Renly knew what his duty was. And at every turn, he chose not to do it. Renly was only ever out for Renly.

And he is quite blatant about this. He never tries to hide it.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

No there isn't, it's just more reason for Stannis to think himself in danger. Why Stannis didn't tell Robert is explained in the text, you quoted it.

He says he didn't tell Robert because it would look self serving. But after Jon Arryn died, surely he would see that the stakes were raised and inform Robert appropriately? At that point people have been killed.

[chrisdaw]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

He says he didn't tell Robert because it would look self serving. But after Jon Arryn died, surely he would see that the stakes were raised and inform Robert appropriately? At that point people have been killed.

The text states it plainly, I have no issue with the character as written, you do and that's ok.

My issue is the presumption that Robert is at that time in danger, it makes sense in hindsight and from our POV, but from JA, Ned and Stannis not really. I don't think even Varys and Illyrio contemplate Lannisters will murder Robert when they're thinking through the situation aloud.

Edited November 23, 2022 by chrisdaw

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

My issue is the presumption that Robert is at that time in danger, it makes sense in hindsight and from our POV, but from JA, Ned and Stannis not really. I don't think even Varys and Illyrio contemplate Lannisters will murder Robert when they're thinking through the situation aloud.

I don't understand why Stannis would not see Robert being in danger given that his Hand has just been killed. Even if Stannis doesn't believe Robert is personally in any danger, the Incest is a significant threat to his reign, so I would think at that point the risk would outweigh Stannis' concern of being seen as self-serving. The Baratheon dynasty as a whole is threatened because their heirs aren't legitimate.

13 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The text states it plainly, I have no issue with the character as written, you do and that's ok.

I'm confused as to what I'm missing. I understand Stannis' argument that it would look self serving, and that he was in fear of his life, I just can't see why he wouldn't inform Robert anyway because that's the course of action duty would seem to dictate.

[Craving Peaches]

24 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Where is it in the text that he's preparing for a war of succession?

I believe it's mentioned some point in the first book that Stannis is hiring sellswords and the like, which would suggest he's preparing for some sort of conflict, not necessary a succession war, though that would probably be the most likely scenario from his point of view.

[frenin]

32 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Where is it in the text that he's preparing for a war of succession?

He's preparing for a war that can only start with Roobert dead.

Why do you think he's talking with stormlords and hiring mercs?

[frenin]

46 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

it's out of the question that Renly knew of the twincest? 

Yes, because lying serves him little and because Renly is frankly open about laws not mattering to him, might being the only imoportant thing.

 

48 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

and was lying through his teeth about it during his confrontation with Stannis.

Why? So the 100k men that knew him as a usurper but chose to follow him anyway  would... not view him as usurper?

 

52 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

He chose to abandon his king's chosen Regent in his hour of need rather than helping the Regent fulfill the task given to him by the king.

Dying with Ned*

53 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Renly was only ever out for Renly.

He has never hinted otherwise and has always being pretty clear about this.

All the more reason to believe he is sincere.

[chrisdaw]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm confused as to what I'm missing. I understand Stannis' argument that it would look self serving, and that he was in fear of his life, I just can't see why he wouldn't inform Robert anyway because that's the course of action duty would seem to dictate.

You're not missing anything. Robert would not believe him so he didn't go to Robert and wouldn't until he had proof.

From the perspective of Stannis the Lannisters killed JA because he knew and would likely tell Robert. So Stannis believing himself in immediate danger fled. That doesn't mean he's abandoning the cause or course of proving to Robert those are not his children forever, just that they could kill him tomorrow so he needs to go right now. He leaves and readies himself for the possibility of having to defend himself. While thinking on what, if anything, he can then do, Robert dies, he then knows himself to be king and begins the process of winning the Storm Lords to his cause, but so does Renly.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

It would look very suspicious coming from Stannis.  And he had very little in the way of hard evidence.  I mean, a history book about the Baratheons is not enough proof to spark a war with the Lannisters. 

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

It would look very suspicious coming from Stannis.  And he had very little in the way of hard evidence.  I mean, a history book about the Baratheons is not enough proof to spark a war with the Lannisters. 

Duty dictates that he still has to tell Robert though, no?

[astarkchoice]

Yeah they had a strained relationship at best , robert not really getting along with any of his brothers or the small council apart from jon arryn who he loved and respected but is apparently too maybe old and low energy to persuade robert from spending so much!

To begin with it may have taken years for anyone to twig something was up. Robert producing one  black haired bastard after  another maybe also  the awkward closeness between the queen and her brother. Stannis we know is a reader and probably one of the main books he would read is own families history .....between the constant black haired kids robert popped out and the book may have twigged something.

He turns to jon arryn  to back up his suspicions who dies suddenly. This seems like a remarkably bold move from cersei stunning stannis...he now feels  at risk himself ,unsure that he doesnt have the meaure of his enemy tbat he thought he did  and to add   fuel  to the fire all seems to point that  robert will name ned as his preferred hand!    now any accusation will have the added baggage as seeming to come out of bitterness. A grief sticken robert may even lash out at his brother for such accusations at such a trying time.

Stannis retreats to his island to prepare and see what ned does

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by astarkchoice

[Alden Rothack]

19 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Alden is saying we don't know it ONLY happens with Baratheons, not that there are blonde Baratheons...

that is what i'm saying, also the last marriage between the baratheon and the lannisters was during Lyonels ara and the child died, while there is contrast between roberts constant parade of black haired bastards and say ned starks children that is entirely justifiable if robert has black hair (which will tend to breed true) and Ned has brown hair (which breeds true about half the time)

if baratheons could have been blond then Lyonels children would have been blond and we knew they weren't

[frenin]

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

From the perspective of Stannis the Lannisters killed JA because he knew and would likely tell Robert. So Stannis believing himself in immediate danger fled.

He did not, he only fled because he was denied the office of Hand. He stayed until Robert went North.

 

20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

, just that they could kill him tomorrow so he needs to go right now. He leaves and readies himself for the possibility of having to defend himself.

He does not need to defend himself while Robert is alive and in power. The Lannisters cannot attack with impunity and not that they could reach him anyway at Dragonstone and with the Royal Fleet.