Which of the less talked about characters do you feel sorry for.

[sifth]

Probably the innkeeper and his daughter, from the story Chiswyck mentions in the second book.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Can't remember who it was with but someone I was arguing with on here a while back was insistent that Varys and Lollys were one and the same. TV show has ruined me and since that discussion my mind's eye sees Conleth Hill in a wig and sloppy makeup whenever Lollys comes up. I'm a fan of the actor, but it ain't a pretty picture.

A scene straight from the books, almost.

"My lord." A woman sidled into the light; plump, soft, matronly, with a round pink moon of a face and heavy dark curls. Tyrion recoiled. "Is something amiss?" she asked.

Varys, he realized with annoyance. "For one horrid moment I thought you'd brought me Lollys instead of Shae.[...]"

 

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Lollys has a weird name and she's a pretty big little minor character. I think that there may be something that she's hiding from us or is being hidden behind her, but I doubt it's a scar.

Why would Lollys need to hide a scar?

[Loose Bolt]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jeyne Poole.  Her story is nightmare fuel.

If she somehow outlives all other Boltons she would inherit Dreadfort. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

What theories are their about Varys?  It is an interesting question.  I would not expect GRRM to make Varys a master of disguise, and then not use it in some tricksy way.

Character X is Varys, but Varys himself has been theorised to be, among other things:

• A Blackfyre
• A Woman
• A Merman
• Not a Eunuch at all
• A Secret Targaryen

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Lollys has a weird name and she's a pretty big little minor character. I think that there may be something that she's hiding from us or is being hidden behind her, but I doubt it's a scar.

Well clearly because both their names end in 'ys' they are one and the same. This means, of course, that Daenerys is Varys, and it also means that Varys is none other that Larys Strong. Case closed.

[Angel Eyes]

Well to start off Donella Hornwood. Lost her husband and her son, then was forced to marry Ramsay Snow and chewed off her fingers to alleviate starvation... which failed anyway.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well to start off Donella Hornwood. Lost her husband and her son, then was forced to marry Ramsay Snow and chewed off her fingers to alleviate starvation... which failed anyway.

I don't think that it was hunger that caused her to chew off her fingers, at least not alone. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

8 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

If she somehow outlives all other Boltons she would inherit Dreadfort. 

I would love that

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I would love that

I don't see it happening though, because she was an impostor, and she most likely isn't going to want that creepy place which belonged to and will reminds her of Ramsay. 

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Character X is Varys, but Varys himself has been theorised to be, among other things:

• A Blackfyre
• A Woman
• A Merman
• Not a Eunuch at all
• A Secret Targaryen

If Blackfyres count as "secret Targaryens", then at least 4 of these could be true simultaneously.  And I do recall Varys telling a rather unlikely tall tale apparently designed to explain why he needs to take a piss sitting down.

But I see nothing that makes tricksy use of Varys' known master-of-disguise skill.  The only such theory I have seen is Lollys.  And that too is perfectly consistent with Varys being a Blackfyre, a secret Targaryen, a woman, and not a eunuch at all.   Unless GRRM has just decided not to be tricksy with us.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Dareon the singer.  If God wanted to flog an innocent man to injustice and death, that man is Dareon.  But if we really want to be more inclusive, the ones we should feel sorry for are the poor souls who are enslaved in the hell that are Volantis and Slaver's Bay. 

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Dareon the singer.  If God wanted to flog an innocent man to injustice and death, that man is Dareon.

Assuming his story is true I do feel quite sorry for him. But there are people who have gone through worse.

[Craving Peaches]

20 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

The only such theory I have seen is Lollys.

Issue is that while Varys is revealing his plan to Kevan, Lollys is in Stokeworth. Could he/she really be in two places at once?

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Assuming his story is true I do feel quite sorry for him. But there are people who have gone through worse.

Very well.  That is a fair statement. 

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Issue is that while Varys is revealing his plan to Kevan, Lollys is in Stokeworth. Could he/she really be in two places at once?

Shae was also (supposedly) at Stokeworth, caring for Lollys.  But that did not stop her from meeting Tyrion in the crypts.  Varys brought Shae to Tyrion from Lollys, while Varys himself was made up to look suspiciously like Lollys.  The disguise might be only part of the smuggling operation, if you like.  But that still makes one occasion (even if it was only that once) where Varys impersonated Lollys.

But secret tunnels may lead to other places besides the brothel.

Lollys' bedroom is a place nobody wants to visit.  Nobody is going to know if she goes missing from it.  Except maybe her mother, who I guess would have to be in on any scheme to pass off Varys as her hidden-discarded-and-forgotten lackwit daughter.  Such people are usually hidden, and sometimes left to die of neglect.  The imposture need only begin when Lady Stokeworth decides to make a spectacle of a daughter who likely has not been seen for 20 years.  Such spectacles are confined to special occasions, and need not take much of Varys' time.

The real question is:  where has Varys been hiding?  He's been missing, you know.  And it's not like they did not search for him.  They even found one of his bolt-holes and alternate identities.  But that person is missing too.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

14 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

A scene straight from the books, almost.

"My lord." A woman sidled into the light; plump, soft, matronly, with a round pink moon of a face and heavy dark curls. Tyrion recoiled. "Is something amiss?" she asked.

Varys, he realized with annoyance. "For one horrid moment I thought you'd brought me Lollys instead of Shae.[...]"

Yeah, Varys seems very familiar with the Stokeworths on a couple of occasions. I think there may be something to that relationship - not Varys is Lollys though and I don't have an alternative.  Seems like a weird association. Funny reading that passage though. It looks to me that Tyrion initially mistook Varys for Lollys. 

14 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Why would Lollys need to hide a scar?

So people didn't realize she used to have a cock.

 

Varys is bold but he isn't that brazen, is he? He wouldn't have just grinned and born the half a hundred fathers of Tyrion Tanner and we have reports of Lollys' rape from more than just one source, don't we? That seems like too outlandish a story for him to have cooked up just to plant a baby that he now would need to get ahold of whenever he wanted to wear his Lollys gear. It would also mean that Bron has come under Varys' sway and into his confidence which seems like an unlikely scenario... Varys is hiding somewhere though... why not Stokeworth?  I dunno - too outlandish, I can't take it seriously.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well clearly because both their names end in 'ys' they are one and the same. This means, of course, that Daenerys is Varys, and it also means that Varys is none other that Larys Strong. Case closed.

LOL(lys)

Hey it's right there, she's a comedienne from Lys - waitaminit, Varys is a mummer from Lys!  

 

 

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

So people didn't realize she used to have a cock.

Yes, but why assume Varys used to have a cock?  Does not that assume too much?  Yes, we have Varys' tall tale about the evil magician.  But that story does not have to be true.  Who do you know of who has actually peaked underneath Varys' pubic hairs just to make sure his "scar" isn't actually a vulva?   The most we can conclude with fair probability is that Varys does not piss standing up, and has a story explaining why.

Of course, the converse of this is that nobody is particularly eager to peek beneath Lollys' pubic hairs to make sure her vulva isn't really a scar.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Varys is bold but he isn't that brazen, is he? He wouldn't have just grinned and born the half a hundred fathers of Tyrion Tanner and we have reports of Lollys' rape from more than just one source, don't we?

From what I can tell, our sources for the rapes ultimately boil down to (1) Lollys herself; and (2) the malicious rumor mill.  The story is that when the guards found Lollys she was alone - no rapists in sight.

And if Varys has a hand in both those pies, the story may ultimately come from Varys.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

That seems like too outlandish a story for him to have cooked up just to plant a baby that he now would need to get ahold of whenever he wanted to wear his Lollys gear.

The 50 rapes story allows the traumatized Lollys to completely disappear from public view.  Which is less trouble for Varys as he does not have to make dinner dates or public appearances as "Lollys" any more.

But he still has a bolt hole, where no-one will look, when he needs it.  Hardly a small thing.  His life depended on it.  If not in Lollys' bedroom, where was he hiding?  I'm open to other theories.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

It would also mean that Bron has come under Varys' sway and into his confidence which seems like an unlikely scenario... Varys is hiding somewhere though... why not Stokeworth?

I don't see why Bronn needs to be in on it at all.  He does not intend to go near Lollys until he's ready to make a son of his own, presumably a suitable time after the birth of "Tyrion". 

Perhaps Lollys has already disappeared from her bedroom.  And perhaps the first thing she did was murder Kevan.  Perhaps Bronn will not be too quick to announce her disappearance, for fear of being suspected of something.

But even if Bronn knows more than he lets on, there is something in it for him.  He gets a castle out of it.  And a bride that spends all of her time in her bedroom isn't a hard thing to fake for a while, until she dies supposedly birthing her second son, thereby securing Bronn's claim to Castle Stokeworth.

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

  I dunno - too outlandish, I can't take it seriously.

Fair enough.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

17 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Yes, but why assume Varys used to have a cock?  Does not that assume too much?  Yes, we have Varys' tall tale about the evil magician.  But that story does not have to be true.  Who do you know of who has actually peaked underneath Varys' pubic hairs just to make sure his "scar" isn't actually a vulva?   The most we can conclude with fair probability is that Varys does not piss standing up, and has a story explaining why.

Of course, the converse of this is that nobody is particularly eager to peek beneath Lollys' pubic hairs to make sure her vulva isn't really a scar.

I agree with you 100%. We take for granted Varys had one in the first place only because he tells us he does. Nobody's checking. I would have to revisit Illyrio's conversations with Tyrion at the beginning of Dance to see what he did or didn't actually corroborate about V's youth, not that he's trustworthy but it's something

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't see why Bronn needs to be in on it at all.  He does not intend to go near Lollys until he's ready to make a son of his own, presumably a suitable time after the birth of "Tyrion". 

Bronn would have to be in on it because he's either sleeping with Lollys or not sleeping with Lollys.

Are there any missing babies anywhere that would be potentially important enough to justify this ruse?  Maybe the whole point was securing a safe place for the child called Tyrion Tanner? I'm still not on side, but if there was a motivation I could believe in I could weaken. (I'm horribly wishy washy when it comes to theories)