Star Wars: a story for every fan? (Andor Spoilers)

[Relic]

By getting kicked over like a trash can B2-EMO started the Galactic Rebellion.

[JGP]

Spooky trailer man voice:

'First they took his friends.'

[flash of faces in various visages of alarm]

'Then they took... his  M o m m y '

[Rhom]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

By getting kicked over like a trash can B2-EMO started the Galactic Rebellion.

I noticed in the opening mask montage (which I have skipped prior to this week) included B2-EMO.

I am fine with having different stories and settings in Star Wars… but now that the bar has been set for quality it should not go back.  There can be fun and light hearted shows, but they should be good.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Didn’t we have plenty of that earlier on in the season from the now deceased Karis? Why does there need to be any more of that? Don’t most rebellions just want freedom? Isn’t that enough. They are reacting to oppression and want to end it, it’s hardly unusual that there is no over arching philosophy behind it for many of them. It’s already been established that there are many disparate groups out there trying to rebel and I’m sure they all have different goals and ideas for the future. Luthen’s main aim is simply to stir up anger and create a reaction and bring together all that anger and direct it. That is the first step.

In a cartoon for children rebeld might just want freedom. In a complex spy thriller like show for adults the political framework could reflect the educational background of grown-ups.

And I'm not sure how the Luthen policy could lead to anything. I mean, this is an authoritarian state already. Is there a free press? Independent reports on rebel raids and the like? If I were Palpatine, my media wouldn't do any of that, and my secret police would come down hard on the people who think they could broadcast news I don't want to see out there.

You see how easy it is for totalitarian regimes to control the information flow in their domains. So technically the only result of Luthen's policies should be the Empire increasing its repression ... without the people knowing anything about atrocities happening on the next planet nor anyone being able to connect. To be angry about repression you have to know it happens. And you have to care that it happens to other people.

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I’m not sure how you would fit this in or why. The show already jumps around numerous worlds showing how the Empirr operates. In fact it’s maybe the shows greatest strength that it makes the viewer understand what they are rebelling against. There doesn’t seem any value in belabouring the point.

Oh, come on, that's no argument against that. Most of the Mothma scenes took place in her apartment ... why did they have to take place on Coruscant? They could have discussed their family matters on Chandrila. In fact, the Vel-Mon scenes could have made more sense on Chandrila since the idea that an actual rebel operative leader involved in a successful heist should, perhaps, not hang on out on Coruscant. I mean, there was surveillance in that base, so folks could have identified Vel despite her disguise. Especially if they have facial recognition software (which they have in Star Wars).

Since 1977 we have seen and seen and seen how evil the Empire is, how badly they treat the Rebels and outlying Outer Rim world. So far we have barely seen how life under the Empire is on a rich Core World like Chandrila or Alderaan (there we only saw the royal family, which is about as representative as how life in Katar is from the point of the family of a minister of the regime).

[DaveSumm]

I was too late to start the next thread, but was gonna go with “I burn my life to make a thread that I know I’ll never post in”, then never post again.

[Lord Varys]

Thinking about the Aldhani thing - does it make much sense the Empire would allow this news to spread? Rebel media could report on it, but would the heist be seen as real if official Imperial news agency/spokespeople wouldn't confirm it happened? Would Palpatine even have an incentive/being forced to enact more draconian measures if the galaxy at large didn't know anything bad happened?

Those are serious questions to consider in light of the fact that Aldhani is literally a remote world with a native population that doesn't seem particularly well-connected to the larger galaxy. The only people reporting on this would thus be the Empire themselves or the Rebels ... and the latter don't seem to be doing any broadcasting that we know of.

But why do the Imperials report about? It doesn't make much sense.

The only in-universe explanation I think one could consider seriously is that the Empire is forced to address the issue because it is truly lacking the credits to pay the people from the sector the money was for. But that, in turn, would imply a shortage of coin that doesn't make sense in this system where the Emperor's government would be in complete control of Imperial currency and the entire economic infrastructure.

Luthen's entire policy seems to rely on the fact that the public will inevitably learn about Rebel attacks, that the Empire will admit that successful attacks are happening and will allow this news to spread to the larger public sphere in the galaxy. But is that likely to happen, in an authoritarian regime that has institutions like ISB?

It seems the whole thing hinges on the exist of a free press or easy access to information from everywhere in the galaxy that indicates that is something we would call a free press. But this kind of infrastructure would have been the first the Emperor did away with when he took power. He would have started to do away with it during the Clone Wars, in fact.

[Corvinus85]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking about the Aldhani thing - does it make much sense the Empire would allow this news to spread? Rebel media could report on it, but would the heist be seen as real if official Imperial news agency/spokespeople wouldn't confirm it happened? Would Palpatine even have an incentive/being forced to enact more draconian measures if the galaxy at large didn't know anything bad happened?

Those are serious questions to consider in light of the fact that Aldhani is literally a remote world with a native population that doesn't seem particularly well-connected to the larger galaxy. The only people reporting on this would thus be the Empire themselves or the Rebels ... and the latter don't seem to be doing any broadcasting that we know of.

But why do the Imperials report about? It doesn't make much sense.

The only in-universe explanation I think one could consider seriously is that the Empire is forced to address the issue because it is truly lacking the credits to pay the people from the sector the money was for. But that, in turn, would imply a shortage of coin that doesn't make sense in this system where the Emperor's government would be in complete control of Imperial currency and the entire economic infrastructure.

Luthen's entire policy seems to rely on the fact that the public will inevitably learn about Rebel attacks, that the Empire will admit that successful attacks are happening and will allow this news to spread to the larger public sphere in the galaxy. But is that likely to happen, in an authoritarian regime that has institutions like ISB?

It seems the whole thing hinges on the exist of a free press or easy access to information from everywhere in the galaxy that indicates that is something we would call a free press. But this kind of infrastructure would have been the first the Emperor did away with when he took power. He would have started to do away with it during the Clone Wars, in fact.

Aldhani is not that remote. Vel's words are: "Aldhani has the unfortunate quality of being close to nothing and being not very far from everything. It's the perfect distribution hub." That's why they kept the payroll there for an entire sector. I doubt such a place can keep news from leaking. It's just the illusion that the zone where the heist took place is not that populated.

And once senators found out as we see in Mon Mothma's scene it was all over. I imagine the Senate is a really porous institution. 

[Relic]

19 hours ago, JGP said:

Spooky trailer man voice:

'First they took his friends.'

[flash of faces in various visages of alarm]

'Then they took... his  M o m m y '

'Then they took... his  M-M-M o m m y '

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Aldhani is not that remote. Vel's words are: "Aldhani has the unfortunate quality of being close to nothing and being not very far from everything. It's the perfect distribution hub." That's why they kept the payroll there for an entire sector. I doubt such a place can keep news from leaking. It's just the illusion that the zone where the heist took place is not that populated.

The planet as such is clearly not that populated. And whatever population there are don't look as if they are able to broadcast to the entire galaxy what transpired at the base. The planet isn't really part of the Empire proper, with the garrison having come only quite recently, meaning those people don't have their own representatives in the Senate or other means to spread information. The sector in question would be a pretty remote sector, or else we would assume the destribution hub world for that sector would have a larger Imperial presence.

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

And once senators found out as we see in Mon Mothma's scene it was all over. I imagine the Senate is a really porous institution. 

The Imperial Senate definitely would learn about it since the Senator(s) from the affected sector will learn that there are problems in the payment department ... but how likely is it that a Senate full of Palpatine's cronies and a media controlled by the Empire would broadcast any of this? I mean, the first rule of authoritarian governments is to control the media and spread propaganda, and the first rule of doing this is erase/not mention your own defeats and/or portray them as alleged victories.

I'm not saying Palpatine wouldn't implement more draconian measures in the wake of Aldhani ... I'm saying Luthen's agenda of goading the Empire into being ever more repressive isn't likely to succeed like he hopes unless we assume there is basically a non-Imperial counter-public which has the means to make information available to every interested citizen. And that just shouldn't exist.

To motivate people to stand up against the Empire you have to show them a better way, not increase their desperation. They need to be able to connect with each other, to get the feeling that they can fight the Empire. Else the Empire will break any resistance one planet at a time.

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The planet as such is clearly not that populated. And whatever population there are don't look as if they are able to broadcast to the entire galaxy what transpired at the base. The planet isn't really part of the Empire proper, with the garrison having come only quite recently, meaning those people don't have their own representatives in the Senate or other means to spread information. The sector in question would be a pretty remote sector, or else we would assume the destribution hub world for that sector would have a larger Imperial presence.

Sorry, from where did you get this information?

[felice]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only in-universe explanation I think one could consider seriously is that the Empire is forced to address the issue because it is truly lacking the credits to pay the people from the sector the money was for. But that, in turn, would imply a shortage of coin that doesn't make sense in this system where the Emperor's government would be in complete control of Imperial currency and the entire economic infrastructure.

The Empire can trivially afford to replace the stolen credits, but it needs to allocate them and physically transport them across the galaxy; that takes time. The payment delays will draw people's attention to Aldhani.

[Lord Varys]

49 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Sorry, from where did you get this information?

I think there was talk about the Empire having gone there only recently, with them not being forced to participate in the ritual much longer, etc. The whole thing is clearly a colonist setting, with the Empire doing the colonizing. If folks were there since the Republic days then Aldhani would have a representative in the Senate and/or an Imperial governor overseeing the system.

The impression you get with Aldhani and the adjacent sector is that this is clearly some outlying, backwater region. Else they would not use such a vulnerable location to store that much money. Yes, they are complacent and all ... but they also like to put their power on display. So in a more developed/secure sector the money would be stored in an Imperial capital on a colonized world, or in the palace/fortress of a governor or Moff.

28 minutes ago, felice said:

The Empire can trivially afford to replace the stolen credits, but it needs to allocate them and physically transport them across the galaxy; that takes time. The payment delays will draw people's attention to Aldhani.

True enough. But it would still be at the discretion of the Empire how they explain the delay, right? Just as it is in the discretion of, say, the railroad administration how they explain the delay of this or that train. They can say it was a terrorist attack. Or lie and say it was an accident, malfunction, etc.

Even if we assume the Empire couldn't stop a leak in the Aldhani incident, we cannot follow Luthen's logic and assume the Empire will never put measures in place to control the flow of information better. A political agenda based on the idea that you have turn a totalitarian state into an absolute nightmare because that will then push the people into rebellion reads like a very bad idea. Lots of things could go wrong. People could just submit to the Empire, people's willingness to fight could be destroyed for good, people could blame the rebel terrorists for their precarious position, etc. If the Rebel agenda is basically to fuck with the Empire in a manner that provokes them to implement more draconian measures, then the Empire's propaganda department will most definitely tell the public that they are forced to do this because of the terrorist. And the majority of the people should be content with that explanation.

[Corvinus85]

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think there was talk about the Empire having gone there only recently, with them not being forced to participate in the ritual much longer, etc. The whole thing is clearly a colonist setting, with the Empire doing the colonizing. If folks were there since the Republic days then Aldhani would have a representative in the Senate and/or an Imperial governor overseeing the system.

The impression you get with Aldhani and the adjacent sector is that this is clearly some outlying, backwater region. Else they would not use such a vulnerable location to store that much money. Yes, they are complacent and all ... but they also like to put their power on display. So in a more developed/secure sector the money would be stored in an Imperial capital on a colonized world, or in the palace/fortress of a governor or Moff.

You need to watch the first episode of the Aldhani arc again. In the same scene from which I quoted Vel's line above, she also mentions that the Empire had been there for a decade. That's how long it took them to systematically relocate almost all of 40,000 locals that lived in those highlands. Vel mentions that Aldhanians had lived there for centuries.

My impression of the planet is that it's a small planet that is far away from major population centers but sits in a strategic location, i.e. at the intersection of hyperspace lanes, which makes it a good stopping spot. However, because of the space features, like the asteroid belt the planet regularly passes through, it's not a place where you want to have a space station and orbital installations, so it never developed into a big commercial hub. Also, and I don't know if you've watched Tales of the Jedi, if the planet did have reps in the Senate, maybe they weren't corrupt assholes like some of the senators shown in Tales of the Jedi who exploited their own planets.

[mormont]

It is a reasonable point, though, that media and the flow of information in the SW universe is one of the worldbuilding points that's hopelessly inconsistent, both within the setting and with the tech level displayed in other ways.

Basically, I think LV has some decent points about the writing - the plotting in Andor sometimes has issues. As noted, the lost sister arc disappears abruptly, Mon Mothma's story is very much put to the side and shows little progress (though thematically it's often important), and there are plot holes. That we can mostly forgive them in the service of the things the series gets very, very right - wonderful performances, great work on the setting, the rarity of seeing a mainstream series that is so serious about anti-fascism - doesn't mean those flaws don't exist.

[JGP]

So... I got money on Cassian being the eventual end of Luthen.

Any takers?

[The Mance]

9 minutes ago, JGP said:

So... I got money on Cassian being the eventual end of Luthen.

Any takers?

It'd be interesting to see Cass work himself into a position of having to sacrifice Luthen for the good of the rebellion. 

[JGP]

Definitely.

[Jaxom 1974]

I do suspect that the time jump into season two (not the best idea in my opinion), wi being home the flaws in leaving Mon Motha's story to dangle...

I could have really used more of that.  I found that part of the story the most fascinating...

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

You need to watch the first episode of the Aldhani arc again. In the same scene from which I quoted Vel's line above, she also mentions that the Empire had been there for a decade. That's how long it took them to systematically relocate almost all of 40,000 locals that lived in those highlands. Vel mentions that Aldhanians had lived there for centuries.

Yes, I remembered that. And that's confirmation that this is an Imperial colony - the Republic apparently wasn't on that planet before.

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

My impression of the planet is that it's a small planet that is far away from major population centers but sits in a strategic location, i.e. at the intersection of hyperspace lanes, which makes it a good stopping spot. However, because of the space features, like the asteroid belt the planet regularly passes through, it's not a place where you want to have a space station and orbital installations, so it never developed into a big commercial hub. Also, and I don't know if you've watched Tales of the Jedi, if the planet did have reps in the Senate, maybe they weren't corrupt assholes like some of the senators shown in Tales of the Jedi who exploited their own planets.

If the planet sits at an important intersection of hyperspace lanes then those would be pretty new ones, i.e. their discovery/importance would be part of the explansion of the Empire. That, in turn, indicates the sector we talk about here isn't exactly close to the Core Worlds. After all, if the importance of this hyperlanes juncture had been evident a hundred or a thousand years ago Aldhani would look quite different in the show. The meteor shower doesn't happen that often, and should be no argument against proper installations and development on the ground.

54 minutes ago, mormont said:

It is a reasonable point, though, that media and the flow of information in the SW universe is one of the worldbuilding points that's hopelessly inconsistent, both within the setting and with the tech level displayed in other ways.

If we take it seriously as a show for adults, those are things we shouldn't just hand-wave. Especially since one of the children's shows, Rebels, actually happens to depict a Rebel cell seizing control of a hyperspace capable broadcasting tower and sending out the truth of crucial Imperial crimes. That also happens around the same time as Andor takes place, so the question why the hell Luthen thinks folks will just start to rebel or fight back when the Empire gets ever more evil ... while at the same time potential Rebel sympathizers like Cassian are preemptively murdered.

Somehow this political agenda doesn't really look as if a competent leader came up with it.

54 minutes ago, mormont said:

That we can mostly forgive them in the service of the things the series gets very, very right - wonderful performances, great work on the setting, the rarity of seeing a mainstream series that is so serious about anti-fascism - doesn't mean those flaws don't exist.

The show is great at depicting how fascism sucks. But I feel it fails at properly depiction the gestation of a positive rebel/partisan/terrorist movement against the fascistic government. The writer decided to go with the Rebels being a brutal hierarchal terrorist group, basically.

I'm not saying this aspect is completely wrong. You can and should depict ugly and controversial but necessary Rebel operations, especially during the actual Galactic Civil War when Palpatine really increased the stakes with his Death Star thing. But the really anti-fascist potential of Star Wars is the fact that the good guys are actually good insurgents, terrorist, people attacking the (legitimate) government, driven not by a zeal to build some theocratic or authoritarian or puritan regime ... but restore a democratic republic.

This kind of plot has enormous potential to be really story, especially in a story written for adults. And I feel Disney Star Wars is kind of avoiding that, by giving us 'good Imperials' (i.e. 'good fascists') and pairing them with dark and gritty and grey Rebels.

[Corvinus85]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, I remembered that. And that's confirmation that this is an Imperial colony - the Republic apparently wasn't on that planet before.

I don't follow. The Republic has never operated by having a presence on a planet. Planets that were part of the Republic had a "presence" on Coruscant.