Star Wars: a story for every fan? (Andor Spoilers)

[Kalbear]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The show is great at depicting how fascism sucks. But I feel it fails at properly depiction the gestation of a positive rebel/partisan/terrorist movement against the fascistic government. The writer decided to go with the Rebels being a brutal hierarchal terrorist group, basically.

You keep saying this while absolutely ignoring everything that contradicts it - Maarva, Mon Mothma, Val, Cinta, Nemik. 

Or possibly the most important thing, which is that the Rebellion ends up being a federation of a number of interests. Some of them are significantly more idealistic and end up being the more forward face of the movement; some of them end up being like Saw Gerrera. 

Luthen is definitely an uglier side. But here's the thing - we've already seen the nice side. We don't need to see more of that. This isn't the Rebellion's story; this is the story about how a spymaster and ruthless combatant recruited someone else to the cause. There's room for a whole lot of idealism and a whole lot of badness here, because this is the important point - successful rebellions do not as a rule have only one side. They are a coalition of lots of different groups working together for a common goal or at least while they have common cause. 

And again, we are literally seeing in the last episode the gestation of a positive movement. Like that's the main plot of the story! The whole plot of the series is showing how Luthen is forcing the Empire to overstep and be more brutal because he knows the reprisal will cause more people to lose their comfort and complacency and rise up - which is exactly what ends up happening. Luthen isn't interested in running the rebellion or coordinating all of that. He's interested in getting the ball rolling so others will do it. He's going to keep pushing the Empire to do horrible things and get them to overreach while recruiting spies and assassins that can do dirty jobs, while the rest of the group keeps their hands clean. 

So yeah, Luthen absolutely is not the fuzzy face of the rebellion. Neither is Saw. Neither, really, is Andor. But they're part of it too. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I don't follow. The Republic has never operated by having a presence on a planet. Planets that were part of the Republic had a "presence" on Coruscant.

That is true for proper members of the Republic, but not all worlds where the Republic happens to are also membership worlds. We see this, for instance, in TCW where the Republican moon of Pantora establish a colony on an inhabitated world, claiming it as its protectorate, which is then later revoked because there is an intelligent species there.

Historically, the various regions of the galaxy confirm that the Republic expanded by means of colonization - there is an entire galactic region named 'the Colonies', and one of those worlds is actually Naboo (which was colonized by the Core World of Grizmallt).

But, of course, something like the Imperial base on Aldhani wouldn't be something that happened (often) in the Old Republic. They might have trade outposts and such, and the Jedi would go out there, etc. The fact that the Aldhanians don't seem to have Senate representation and are moved about by their Imperial overlords with impunity is what evokes a forced colonization there.

Which is fine to see occasionally, but as for the gestation of the Rebellion one would more like to see how the Empire's treatment of its own citizens led to uprisings. Because, frankly, nobody in the Core Worlds or the Mid or Inner Rim or the Colonies would really all that much about what happened in the backwater of the Outer Rim or Wild Space or the Expansion Region.

This is actually an issue I also have with the Rebels show, by the way - Lothal, the world where Ezra comes from and where the heroes spend most of their time, is another world which is effectively colonized by the Empire rather than being a willing part of. The Zahn novels give Lothal a corrupt Imperial Senator who basically sells out his homeworld to the Empire, but I'd say that this is only a minor difference.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

You keep saying this while absolutely ignoring everything that contradicts it - Maarva, Mon Mothma, Val, Cinta, Nemik.

I might be using hyperbole here, but Mon Mothma is presented as little more than a terrorist financier who doesn't even direct the operations of her terrorist underlings. Vel and Cinta are cogs in Luthen's machine and do as their told. Which is pretty nasty in Vel's case consinder she is Mon's cousin and could actually check with her whether she is okay with Luthen-style terrorism and murder.

Maarva I'd view as a Rebel sympathizer, not so much a leader. But the problem with her is that her speech simply has little substance to offer.

2 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

 Or possibly the most important thing, which is that the Rebellion ends up being a federation of a number of interests. Some of them are significantly more idealistic and end up being the more forward face of the movement; some of them end up being like Saw Gerrera. 

Yes, yes, but now we know that Mon Mothma's own organization is effectively run by a bloodhound. There is no idealism there that I can see. Rogue One twisting Saw Gerrera into some brutal lunatic was also, well, a questionable decision considering where that character started out - as a freedom fighter defending his own world of Onderon against the Separatist and successfully driving them off his planet.

It is not inconceivable that Saw would end like that, but his character would have made more sense as a more idealistic and positive leader of the early Rebellion. His lesson from the Clone Wars, after all, was that rebellion can work. It also feels quite odd that this guy would care for the folks on Jedha.

2 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Luthen is definitely an uglier side. But here's the thing - we've already seen the nice side. We don't need to see more of that. This isn't the Rebellion's story; this is the story about how a spymaster and ruthless combatant recruited someone else to the cause. There's room for a whole lot of idealism and a whole lot of badness here, because this is the important point - successful rebellions do not as a rule have only one side. They are a coalition of lots of different groups working together for a common goal or at least while they have common cause. 

That is definitely not a general rule. You can obviously tell Cassian's story as the story of an average guy falling in with a ruthless rebel leader ... but they could just as well have made him more idealistic, and stretch the development of the man we meet in Rogue One over a longer period of time. Luthen could have been easily enough less of thug.

I mean, Luthen organizing the heist of Aldhani is all pretty good ... it is the whole murder plot thereafter that makes this whole thing stink. And then also, of course, the betrayal of Kreegyr.

2 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

And again, we are literally seeing in the last episode the gestation of a positive movement. Like that's the main plot of the story! The whole plot of the series is showing how Luthen is forcing the Empire to overstep and be more brutal because he knows the reprisal will cause more people to lose their comfort and complacency and rise up - which is exactly what ends up happening. 

Sorry, but you cannot just imagine causality where there is none. Aldhani caused the Empire to implement more draconian measures, but the Ferrix situation is solely due to Syril's investigation of the deaths of the guardsmen. Subsequently, the Empire only messes with the people of Ferrix because of Cassian's former presence there.

Luthen's plans have nothing to do with Maarva's Rebel sympathies, nor her standing within her community, nor the riots that break out during her funeral procession.

In context, one should also point out that actually threatening one of your moles who works at ISB might also a weird way to keep him loyal. Unless you have more moles beside him (and it doesn't look like that) the guy could easily enough sell you out. The Empire could easily enough use him as a triple agent. The way to keep such a guy sweet is to go with the idealism that brought him to the Rebellion, not the prospect that the Rebellion now has the means to destroy him.

I'm not saying that blackmail isn't a means the Rebellion should or would never use ... but the Empire and especially ISB or the Emperor's inner circle should be much better at that game than the likes of Luthen.

[Heartofice]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, but you cannot just imagine causality where there is none. Aldhani caused the Empire to implement more draconian measures, but the Ferrix situation is solely due to Syril's investigation of the deaths of the guardsmen. Subsequently, the Empire only messes with the people of Ferrix because of Cassian's former presence there.

Sure but why do the empire care so much about Cassian at that point? Aldhani.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

@Lord Varys

”the betrayal of Kreegyr”.  This action was entirely consistent and coldly rational even if you disagree with it.

[Corvinus85]

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

15 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

I watched a lot of SciFi that looked like that as a kid.   

[Ran]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I watched a lot of SciFi that looked like that as a kid.   

Ditto. Pretty fun. Though the score was more early 80s than 70s.

[Spockydog]

 

 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Sure but why do the empire care so much about Cassian at that point? Aldhani.

The point of the discussion was that Luthen's political program of convincing the Empire to smack down people led to the Aldhani uprising ... and that's just wrong. Maarva's death had nothing to do with Imperial politics, and things would have gone as they did independent of the draconian measures implemented after Aldhani. Things on Ferrix got worse because of Cassian's double murder and of his subsequent escape leading to the Empire taking charge of the planets.

Aldhani had some impact on Maarva, but not because of the measures thereafter, but because of the example it set.

ISB cares about Cassian because Dedra figured out that there was this Axis guy, not because of Aldhani, specifically.

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

@Lord Varys

”the betrayal of Kreegyr”.  This action was entirely consistent and coldly rational even of you disagree with it.

It is not a big issue, but it is nonetheless shitty to put the life of a corrupt official above the lives and success of actual Rebels. Especially in this early phase where there is not even a Rebel Alliance yet. Whatever war looms in the future won't be won because Luthen has a mole somewhere in ISB. They are not the Imperial navy, or Darth Vader's aides, no?

I mean, any Rebel cell doing successful heist/operation could inspire others to follow their example, while the crushing defeat at Spellhaus could serve as an example why resistance is futile.

I see no reason why I, as the audience, should identify with Luthen or approve of his arguments when I just don't. I also think it is kind of sad how many people seem to buy his shitty justifications and excuses.

It is just unrealistic that a movement which was apparently founded by people using Stalinist methods could ever develop into a more open, egalitarian, liberal movement. That's like expecting the actual Stalinists would only grow more liberal and less authoritarian in the course of the Russian civil war in the wake of 1917.

Luthen's rebellion would never allow Luke to fly a spacecraft, much less work with the likes of Han Solo. Han would be shot on sight, most likely, whilst Luke might be used to then get the Cassian treatment, just in case.

[Kalbear]

Again this completely ignores what happened in the actual show. Maarva explicitly states that she is becoming a rebel because of aldhani. Because while the empire took over after ferrix, they did not start the crackdown until after aldhani - AND she needs to have some hope that people can succeed.

Continuing to criticize the show for plot points that don't exist is definitely something, but it isn't a serious analysis.

As to the stalinist bullshit - the producer of this show literally has a library devoted to revolutions in his house. There are a lot of different examples in world history, but the fact of the matter is that rebellions do develop into idealism wings all the time and it doesn't take much to see those kinds of examples. The thesis of the show is that most people are largely fine with a little fascism provided it doesn't affect them much, and the only people who oppose that level are the extremist groups. You need to have a far more evil and overreaching group to gain the popular support. Until then you work with the extremists. 

And then you get the figurehead and people hoping for democracy. 

But even then, it took the empire executing his family to turn that Luke into a rebel. Again, the text of the story is 100% consistent with the movie we first started with. 

Also note even the stalinist idea is obviously bullshit - Luthen isn't running some ideological purity test. He's entirely pragmatic. He isn't against saw or kreegyr or andor because they are insufficiently loyal to him - he's against any of them when they endanger the bigger picture.

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Again this completely ignores what happened in the actual show. Maarva explicitly states that she is becoming a rebel because of aldhani. Because while the empire took over after ferrix, they did not start the crackdown until after aldhani - AND she needs to have some hope that people can succeed.

There is no indication that Ferrix suffered more because of Aldhani - it did because of Cassian's murder and the Empire establishing a more direct rule of the planet. The more draconian measures apparently involved the length of sentences for offenses and the question whether anyone is ever released from those prisons.

I also understood that Maarva had always rebel leanings - Aldhani just gave her the push to try to do something.

18 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

As to the stalinist bullshit - the producer of this show literally has a library devoted to revolutions in his house. There are a lot of different examples in world history, but the fact of the matter is that rebellions do develop into idealism wings all the time and it doesn't take much to see those kinds of examples. The thesis of the show is that most people are largely fine with a little fascism provided it doesn't affect them much, and the only people who oppose that level are the extremist groups. You need to have a far more evil and overreaching group to gain the popular support. Until then you work with the extremists. 

The point there is that if your organization is strictly hierarchical and involving paranoia and betrayal from the start the chances are not that good that they will suddenly discover democracy.

The thesis that you need a completely evil and totalitarian society to convince people to rise up is just utter horseshit. Nobody building for a rebellion ever wanted to strengthen the repressive powers of the regime they wanted to overthrow.

They might create more chaos, hope to exploit things that really work up the people - like famines, etc. ... but only complete monsters would deliberate help a tyrant to get more powerful so that people might want to overthrow him. That's just nonsense.

18 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

But even then, it took the empire executing his family to turn that Luke into a rebel. Again, the text of the story is 100% consistent with the movie we first started with. 

Luke actually wanted to join the Imperial academy. He had not that many problems with the Empire, and his motivations to help the Rebellion had more to do with the gorgeous hologram of Carrie Fisher than, you know, politics.

18 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Also note even the stalinist idea is obviously bullshit - Luthen isn't running some ideological purity test. He's entirely pragmatic. He isn't against saw or kreegyr or andor because they are insufficiently loyal to him - he's against any of them when they endanger the bigger picture.

That's not what I meant by Stalinist there - it is about the underhanded methods which reek of Stalinists fighting Trotzkyists outside the Soviet Union, etc.

[Toth]

Since we are already at the stage of sharing interesting videos:

 

[RumHam]

On 11/25/2022 at 8:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

Especially if they have facial recognition software (which they have in Star Wars)

They do? I remember there's an episode of the Mandalorian:

Spoiler

Where the main guy can't access an imperial computer without a facial scan. The tension comes from his reluctance to remove his helmet, not that he won't pass the scan. Apparently the computer just wants to see any face. It was weird as hell unless you assume they don't have facial recognition and just want some record of who accesses the files. 

 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

They do? I remember there's an episode of the Mandalorian:

  Hide contents

Where the main guy can't access an imperial computer without a facial scan. The tension comes from his reluctance to remove his helmet, not that he won't pass the scan. Apparently the computer just wants to see any face. It was weird as hell unless you assume they don't have facial recognition and just want some record of who accesses the files. 

 

They have facial recognition software to identify suspects in 'The Duchess of Mandalore', the third episode of the first Mandalore arc in TCW.

I guess they identify connect the Aldhani guy with Cassian Andor the double murderer of Ferrix that way, too. I'll check if this is explicit during a rewatch.

It is ridiculous as hell that the cousin of the famous politician Senator Mon Mothma can partake in a terrorist attack and not risk being caught on camera and being identified by facial recognition software. Their is no hiding from that. True enough, Jen doesn't go in with the others, so she the risk is lower that a camera records her face, but it is still there. And it will be always there on all the missions she does for the Rebellion.

I recall the scene from The Mandalorian you talk about, but you can always pretend there that his face was put in the system somehow earlier - via slicing or something similar.

[RumHam]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I recall the scene from The Mandalorian you talk about, but you can always pretend there that his face was put in the system somehow earlier - via slicing or something similar.

Your suspension of disbelief seems oddly flexible. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Your suspension of disbelief seems oddly flexible. 

It is more me barely remembering that scene. I do recall a scene with the Mandalorian in a base, but the context escapes me at the moment.

I think, though, there are differences between people being identified as terrorists or criminals via facial recognition software and some kind of registration process to use a phone.

[karaddin]

On 11/27/2022 at 11:12 AM, The Mance said:

It'd be interesting to see Cass work himself into a position of having to sacrifice Luthen for the good of the rebellion. 

Could easily see this happening with or without the planning or consent of Luthen as well. Personally I think I like it more if its with it

[Relic]

Strictly to amuse myself on the tram this morning I googled "Is Luthen Snoke?" to see if anyone is coming out with outlandish theories. And Reddit did not dissapoint. 

[Spockydog]

15 minutes ago, Relic said:

Strictly to amuse myself on the tram this morning I googled "Is Luthen Snoke?" to see if anyone is coming out with outlandish theories. And Reddit did not dissapoint. 

"He wears robes end of story."