Star Wars: a story for every fan? (Andor Spoilers)

[Rubicante]

I think Disney learned the wrong lessons from the Prequel Trilogy.  The main issues with the PT is the directing and dialogue, which Lucas should have had somebody else do.  The world building, characters, and overall story is solid, which is what Lucas is strong at.

Disney, and a large chunk of Star Wars  fandom, state that everything with the PT is bad.  So what does Disney do?  Take the chicken shit approach, play it safe, and copy the original Star Wars movie.

But then they realize after TFA that they need to do something drastically different, and that leads to the monumental train wreck (in my opinion) of the TLJ.  I absolutely hate that movie.  TROS was a pitiful effort to bring it closer in feel to TFA, but it’s too late.  The ST is a disjointed mess.

But at least now they are learning.  Mando is fun, Obi-Wan (aside from Episode 4) feels like the Prequels but with better acting and good dialogue, and Andor is a masterpiece.

[Myrddin]

Actually, it would've been a cool use of the Force ghosts to show up and Force cock block Palpatine's spirit from jumping to a new body. Yoda would win after all.

Regarding TLJ, I didn't mind the head space Rian put Luke in. An aged hero should absolutely be in a different place than his younger self. It was an interesting character development.

My main issue with the movie was the pacing of that slow speed chase. In Empire, the Falcon was a cat and mouse chase. Can you imagine if the Falcon was just out ahead of the Star Destroyer for 45 minutes just running? Then add a subplot of Han and Leia zipping away in a smaller ship to fetch the hyperdrive repair parts from Bespin? Only to have them zip back to the Falcon, still on the run? Yeah, that's how I feel about TLJ

As an aside, Carrie Fisher work on the script extensively with Rian. She was a well known script doctor who knew her craft. It got her seal of approval, for better or worse. 

[Liffguard]

10 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

My main issue with the movie was the pacing of that slow speed chase. In Empire, the Falcon was a cat and mouse chase. Can you imagine if the Falcon was just out ahead of the Star Destroyer for 45 minutes just running? Then add a subplot of Han and Leia zipping away in a smaller ship to fetch the hyperdrive repair parts from Bespin? Only to have them zip back to the Falcon, still on the run? Yeah, that's how I feel about TLJ

This is my number one issue with TLJ. There's a lot of good stuff in that movie but the whole chase set-up (and the pacing generally) is an anchor that it can't overcome. Combine that with some weird tone and dialogue choices and it's a thematically interesting movie that's ultimately a mess in execution.

IMO they should have shamelessly copied from Battelstar Galactica's 33. Keep ratchetting up the tension, then releasing it when they get away in the nick of time, then ratchet it back up again. As a bonus, the paranoia over how they're being tracked would lend more weight to Holdo's decision to withold her plan. Also, Canto Bight can be a location the rebels actually stop at (or close to) so it makes more sense to quickly visit it during a brief window of respite.

[Myrddin]

Exactly, @Liffguard

I introduced BSG to my son last weekend and watched miniseries + 33 + Water with him. 33 was a great example of doing a chase through empty space and keep the suspense (and emotional impact) cranking up.

[Heartofice]

Unfortunately Rian Johnson seems to have used Speed 2: Cruise Control as his inspiration.

[sifth]

I often wonder if J.J. Abrams has ADHD. I mean part of me started to notice this with his Star Trek films, but it becomes very apparent with his Star Wars films. The guy seems to hate exposition and smaller character moments and wants as many fast paced moments and auctioned packed moments in his films as possible. Take Star Trek Into Darkness for example;

Spoiler

where he has Kirk get demoted to a cadet, promoted to first officer and then made captain again, all with in the span of 15 minutes. We never get to see any small character moments of how Kirk feels about losing his ship and his rank, because his scripts always demand something happening.  

 

[Darryk]

10 hours ago, Rubicante said:

I think Disney learned the wrong lessons from the Prequel Trilogy.  The main issues with the PT is the directing and dialogue, which Lucas should have had somebody else do.  The world building, characters, and overall story is solid, which is what Lucas is strong at.

I agree. The prequels fleshed out the mythology and told the story of the fall of a democracy in a space opera setting. Much bolder than the sequels.

Apparently Lucas' plan was for the prequels to be about the fall of Democracy, the Original trilogy about fighting for freedom, and the third trilogy about rebuilding democracy in the wake of a civil war. Luke would have have been training a new generation of Jedi, and Leia would be the one tasked with rebuilding the Republic. Much more true-to-character and interesting roles for those characters.

Also he always intended the saga to be a family saga, so the fact that TLJ was celebrated for shifting the focus from the Skywalkers is just another example of people crapping on Lucas' vision.

[Kalbear]

Lucas didn't want that - he wanted to tell the story of a tiny race of aliens called the Whills which are responsible for the Force.

Let's not make Lucas into this master storyteller all of a sudden. 

[Myrddin]

But we want a quadroloy centered on the political bickering of the Whills!

The end stinger for the second movie:

Whil Iss: Whil Wan never told you what happened to your faher.

Whill Uke: He told me enough. He told me you killed him.

Whil Iss: No. I. Am. Your father.

Whil Uke: Whatchu talking about, Whil Iss? 

[Darryk]

15 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Lucas didn't want that - he wanted to tell the story of a tiny race of aliens called the Whills which are responsible for the Force.

Let's not make Lucas into this master storyteller all of a sudden. 

The Whills were just one aspect of the story, hard to say what role they would have played.

He is a master storyteller, just bad at dialogue and acting. 

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, RumHam said:

To be fair it wasn't pointless. He died saving the rebellion from being snuffed out. It's basically the same stakes as Star Wars and TFA.

He had to die for the whole thing to work. If he's around kicking ass then who needs Rey?

I'm not against Luke getting a heroic death, but dying of - what? - exhaustion because he projected himself to another planet wasn't exactly a great death. It was like Yoda dying of exhaustion when he lifted the X-Wing out of the swamp. (Yoda dying of old age is also not exactly the greatest death of all time, but back in ROTJ Yoda wasn't a main character, merely a mentor figure who could not really be involved in a proper fight scene.)

Luke, on the other hand, is a Star Wars main character who could easily enough have gotten a better story and plot and ending, if the writers felt this was necessary.

Even more so in the wake of Carrie Fisher's death which really should have led to her being left alone in the final movie.

[Slurktan]

3 hours ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Lucas didn't want that - he wanted to tell the story of a tiny race of aliens called the Whills which are responsible for the Force.

Let's not make Lucas into this master storyteller all of a sudden. 

Was the Whills ever seriously part of it or was Lucas just trolling? We know Darth Maul the Godfather was in it and was the primary villain. Luke was also (as per the Hero's Journey) down and out at the start of the first one. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Myrddin said:

Regarding TLJ, I didn't mind the head space Rian put Luke in. An aged hero should absolutely be in a different place than his younger self. It was an interesting character development.

There was no character development there. This Luke is essentially a completely different 'character' (actually a sorry excuse for a character). Luke Skywalker would simply never contemplate or appear to contemplate the murder of his own nephew, nor would he think the Jedi suck because they failed to stop Palpatine.

That's all just a bunch of nonsense. If Luke felt that the Jedi sucked because they failed to stop the rise of the Empire then why the fuck does this guy want to be a Jedi in the OT?

Now, there are story ideas how Luke could be disillusioned about stuff, but that would need a more complex, less childish/moronic story - say, him and his buddies being unable to establish a proper government because there are too many rivaling factions, him realizing that he isn't a great Jedi teacher and/or his students sucking on a broader scale.

But the idea that he would just completely fuck up not only his relationship with his nephew is utter nonsense - the same with the idea that he would somehow conclude the Jedi suck in general.

The obvious story idea for the old gang if they jump ahead thirty years into the future would be to have them being old guys running the show, with a good part of the story revolving around their children and, perhaps, even grandchildren.

5 hours ago, Myrddin said:

My main issue with the movie was the pacing of that slow speed chase. In Empire, the Falcon was a cat and mouse chase. Can you imagine if the Falcon was just out ahead of the Star Destroyer for 45 minutes just running? Then add a subplot of Han and Leia zipping away in a smaller ship to fetch the hyperdrive repair parts from Bespin? Only to have them zip back to the Falcon, still on the run? Yeah, that's how I feel about TLJ

Yes, that's one of the obvious points why the movie sucks hard as a ripoff/version of TESB.

7 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Was the Whills ever seriously part of it or was Lucas just trolling? We know Darth Maul the Godfather was in it and was the primary villain. Luke was also (as per the Hero's Journey) down and out at the start of the first one. 

Lucas' treatment of the ST seems pretty good, actually. The big bad would have been organized crime, Leia would have been the main character as the chancellor of the Republic, Darth Maul would have been the old godfather, and the sexy Darth Talon, his apprentice, would have been the one leading one of Leia's and Han's kids astray.

[Myrddin]

Quote

 Luke Skywalker would simply never contemplate or appear to contemplate the murder of his own nephew, nor would he think the Jedi suck because they failed to stop Palpatine.

That's all just a bunch of nonsense. If Luke felt that the Jedi sucked because they failed to stop the rise of the Empire then why the fuck does this guy want to be a Jedi in the OT?

I don't remember Luke saying the Jedi "sucked". But he fought the temptation of the dark side his whole journey in the OT. He overcame temptation in RotJ, but that's not to say the fear didn't still linger. His own struggle with temptation (remember his lesson in the cave) and seeing what it did to his father is absolutely a logical reason for him to remove himself from the public stage as "the" Jedi master. No students = no future Vader, even though he inadvertently created one in Ben.

I get you don't think it's realistic for him to go off and become a hermit. I do. Opinions differ.

[Week]

The retconning of the story to complain about alleged retconning is so Star Wars.

The retcon of George Lucas as a good storyteller is the most egregious argument IMO.

[JGP]

 

17 minutes ago, Week said:

The retconning of the story to complain about alleged retconning is so Star Wars.

The retcon of George Lucas as a good storyteller is the most egregious IMO.

Louder for the people in the back. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Myrddin said:

I don't remember Luke saying the Jedi "sucked".

He doesn't use those words, but he says they must end because they were morons who failed to stop Darth Sidious.

2 hours ago, Myrddin said:

But he fought the temptation of the dark side his whole journey in the OT. He overcame temptation in RotJ, but that's not to say the fear didn't still linger.

Actually, if we talk character development and growth of a character - especially in mythological terms - then it does indeed mean that look faced a challenge, mastered it, and thus overcame it. When he rejected Palpatine's offer and refused to kill his own father he overcame the dark side - or at least the specific temptation he faced in the OT.

2 hours ago, Myrddin said:

His own struggle with temptation (remember his lesson in the cave) and seeing what it did to his father is absolutely a logical reason for him to remove himself from the public stage as "the" Jedi master. No students = no future Vader, even though he inadvertently created one in Ben.

That would mean that he submitted to fear and became a coward, acting like he did in TESB when he insisted, because of fear, to take a weapon into the cave. Also, of course, if the Jedi are not to return then the final movie of the OT shouldn't have been named 'Return of the Jedi' nor should Luke have finished his Jedi training successfully.

2 hours ago, Myrddin said:

I get you don't think it's realistic for him to go off and become a hermit. I do. Opinions differ.

A hermit? Perhaps. A cowardly hermit declaring that the Jedi were a failure who should die because of mistakes they made before Luke's own birth? No.

In any case, though, Luke Skywalker is too important a character for a movies or shows not to cover the journey that turned him into this hermit you would like to see. Just jumping into the hermit era and not coming up with a compelling backstory just makes little sense.

Also, of course, if Obi-Wan doesn't give up the whole Jedi training thing for good - or spends his time on Tatooine as the kind of complete wreck Luke is in TLJ - you really have to ask yourself why the hell Luke should be doing this.

There is no indication that Luke thought he himself failed as a teacher. He didn't make any mistakes while training his nephew or the others ... but rather decided to madly attack his nephew after he had bad dream/vision of him. That's completely out of character for Luke Skywalker or the Jedi in general. They would never act in this manner.

[SpaceChampion]

18 hours ago, Myrddin said:

Actually, it would've been a cool use of the Force ghosts to show up and Force cock block Palpatine's spirit from jumping to a new body.

 

Mace Windu force-ghost teabagging Palpatine every time he tries to take a shit.

[Relic]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that Luke thought he himself failed as a teacher. He didn't make any mistakes while training his nephew or the others ... but rather decided to madly attack his nephew after he had bad dream/vision of him. That's completely out of character for Luke Skywalker or the Jedi in general. They would never act in this manner.

Yeah, what the hell is he doing creepily standing over the kid's bed with an activated lightsaber? So so so dumb. 

[Myrddin]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

<snip>

To quote our subject: Amazing. Every word you just said was wrong.

Well, most of them. I do agree that they left too much out of his journey between RotJ and his hermit hut, but 30+ years is a long time. Luke's whole OT Hero's Journey was covered in 3-5 years. A blink of an eye. Your assertion that he should never change after that flies in the face of human nature. Goes against the cyclical nature of mythology too.

There wasn't enough time devoted to that change. Agreed. We saw a flash of his anger standing over Ben that he pulled back from without even seeing what led up to it. We can both make assumptions how much or little factored into Luke's rash act. I agree we're not given much to work with.

Listen, we're not going to agree on Luke and I don't have the time, or desire frankly, to engage you in your multi-post threads. I think it's a story worth exploring to have the hero end up a hermit somewhere. Very interesting, in fact. You think his development that culminated in RotJ should've been more permanent. That is absolutely a valid position.

I'll end with the rest of Luke's quote, which actually is him completing his second (on screen) hero's journey: The Rebellion is reborn today... And I will not be the last Jedi. ... See you around, kid.