Star Wars: a story for every fan? (Andor Spoilers)

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm just curious are you familiar with Groot from the marvel movies?

Are you saying Han took Wookie as an elective?

[Rhom]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Are you saying Han took Wookie as an elective?

In the old Star Wars Galaxies MMO; you had to have another player who knew how to speak Wookie teach you the skill to understand Wookie or else you couldn’t understand anything they were typing.

[Myrddin]

10 hours ago, Rhom said:

In the old Star Wars Galaxies MMO; you had to have another player who knew how to speak Wookie teach you the skill to understand Wookie or else you couldn’t understand anything they were typing.

I forgot about that part of the game! It was fun, but required too much time running around looking for the best crafting ingredients to make top % composite armor. Or being required to find a doctor to buff you before a raid.

I was such a nerd back then ("As opposed to now?" - Rhom, probably) that I followed the development of the game before release. They set up an announcement schedule for every Friday for a 6-7 weeks they announced a new species with complete artwork, etc. On the last day, they announced Gungan, which of course sent the Internet into an uproar. Until we realized what the date was. April 1st. After a bit, they announced the real last species to be zabrak.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, DMC said:

I'd say the tone of Phantom Menace - with of course child Anakin's plot - is significantly more kiddy/less mature than the OT, even accounting for the Ewoks.  But as far as the last two movies, especially RotS, yeah I don't see that at all.  The dialogue is just worse/much more cringeworthy in its cheesiness, not necessarily less "mature."

Definitely agree there - but the larger plot of TPM, the one surrounding and penetrating the story of Little Ani (pun intended), is political in nature, albeit rather odd and weird politics. Conceptually, that's clearly more mature than good Rebels vs. evil Imperials.

12 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm just curious are you familiar with Groot from the marvel movies?

Sure, I think we talked the Marvel movies a little bit when I was watching them all chronologically. Although I'd say Groot definitely is an element that wouldn't really fit into the sober, gritty, realistic view of the OT @Heartofice was thinking about.

I think we can agree that Chewie would have been (much) more JarJaresque if Lucas had already had the means to create such a character. But since Chewie is part of Star Wars since 1977 folks rarely analyze the character and how close he is conceptually to some of the more colorful additions in later movies.

[Rhom]

4 hours ago, Myrddin said:

I forgot about that part of the game! It was fun, but required too much time running around looking for the best crafting ingredients to make top % composite armor. Or being required to find a doctor to buff you before a raid.

I was such a nerd back then ("As opposed to now?" - Rhom, probably) that I followed the development of the game before release. They set up an announcement schedule for every Friday for a 6-7 weeks they announced a new species with complete artwork, etc. On the last day, they announced Gungan, which of course sent the Internet into an uproar. Until we realized what the date was. April 1st. After a bit, they announced the real last species to be zabrak.

I'll never forget those early days of the game when you would sit in a Cantina to recover your mind/spirit and you just hung out.  PC Dancers were dancing for you.  A PC band was playing on the stage.  Just a lot of great interaction.  I guess it was just a little TOO sandbox with no real objective to survive once WoW hit the stage, but I did enjoy it for several months while I was nearing the end of school.

I had a Zabrak pikeman/ranger... and it never even occurred to me what I looked like until I had a player accuse me of being a Darth Maul wannabe.  LOL

[Myrddin]

20 minutes ago, Rhom said:

PC Dancers were dancing for you.

Except people like my buddies at work had auto-scripted their player characters to sit there all day and be paid to buff people.  

I played until the whole blowup where they completely changed the game 2 weeks after the Mustafar release (I even stayed through the combat system update where it became more WoW like). My first kid was a bout to be born, so it just made sense to log off the time sink for good.

[RumHam]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, I think we talked the Marvel movies a little bit when I was watching them all chronologically. Although I'd say Groot definitely is an element that wouldn't really fit into the sober, gritty, realistic view of the OT @Heartofice was thinking about.

I think we can agree that Chewie would have been (much) more JarJaresque if Lucas had already had the means to create such a character. But since Chewie is part of Star Wars since 1977 folks rarely analyze the character and how close he is conceptually to some of the more colorful additions in later movies.

Right, I forgot about that. I always thought Groot was an order of magnitude more ridiculous than R2 or Chewie. At least you can imagine they vary their beeps and growls. Groot has three words, and two of them are bizarrely english.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, I forgot about that. I always thought Groot was an order of magnitude more ridiculous than R2 or Chewie. At least you can imagine they vary their beeps and growls. Groot has three words, and two of them are bizarrely english.

I definitely agree there.

Chewie and R2 are stretching things only in the sense that it is ridiculous to assume some (backwater) pilots would learn this kind of language as easily as they apparently did. But it is definitely clear that they are 'speaking' a language.

Knowing that Chewie's talk is actually a variation of animal sounds makes things work less smoothly, though.

[DaveSumm]

48 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Groot has three words, and two of them are bizarrely english.

But then all aliens speak English, so there must be some kind of universal translator situation. I guess Groot’s species can only self-identify, and the language exists in the inflections they add to it.

With the run-down look of ANH, I’ve mentioned it a bunch of times for various reasons but watching it in isolation, the Clone Wars was clearly meant to be a LONG time ago. Alec Guiness was in his 60s, and you get the impression that his escapades were a youthful time (“some damn fool quest like your father”). It could have been 40 years ago for all we knew. The Luke/Vader reveal seemed to contort that to 17 years, but I wish the prequels had kept it a longer time. The emperor could’ve been attempting to create his next powerful apprentice, artificially inseminating a woman who then has to be rescued by Obi Wan / Yoda and she lives alongside Leia for a few years (who remembers her mother). 

Anyway, the vibe of ANH is very much ‘there was a nice clean galaxy and then the Empire came and now we’re left with all this old junk that doesn’t work very well’. Which fits better with a few generations between them for me.

[Caligula_K3]

I know I'm late to the party. I was skeptical of Andor as of its announcement and felt burnt out on Star Wars after Rise of Skywalker, Mandalorian, and Obi-wan. Even when Andor started getting a lot of hype, I decided to wait until the season was over to see what the overall reception was.

But damn, now that I've watched it: that was a phenomenal season of TV. Not everything worked perfectly - the early episodes were paced badly, and the flashbacks to his childhood feel like a waste of time. Sometimes the transitions between stages of the show could be awkward, like Cass getting two minutes of screentime on his vacation planet before being arrested, or the sudden shift between episodes to Cass working with the other prisoners as a team.

But other than that, this was fantastic at nearly every level. I could praise many things: the cast and acting, the tense action setpieces, the detailed sets, the interesting politicking, the nuanced and horrific exploration of fascism and the price of rebellion against evil. But what really sticks with me is how good this show is at  character writing. It has a ridiculous number of side characters, and even though not all of them are developed, they still somehow feel like well rounded, compelling human beings with understandable goals and motivations. And then when they do develop characters, like Luthen, Mon Mothma, Bix, Kino, etc... the show got truly special results.

I'm really impressed - enough that I want to back and watch Rogue One, a movie I admired but didn't particularly love. This is probably the best season of space sci-fi I've seen since the Expanse Season 3. It also for me blew every other recent big franchise TV show out of the water - Star Wars shows, The Witcher, House of the Dragon, Rings of Power, etc...

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

and the flashbacks to his childhood feel like a waste of time.

Yeah as a fellow latecomer this is the only dangling thread that really stands out.  Based on what we know now it really doesn't make any sense.  Like, why did Maarva tell him not to blame himself for what happened?  If anything, he should blame Maarva and Clem for forcibly separating him from his sister.  Definitely feels like we need to revisit this in season two for it to have any meaning at all, particularly considering looking for his sister is the inciting incident of the series.  Given Gilroy's completist nature, I expect we will.

[Heartofice]

So it’s taken 5 seasons and a lot of episode skipping, consulting numerous ‘essential episodes’ lists but Clone Wars finally became half enjoyable. The Darth Maul, two brothers plot line has at least a thread of quality in there, even if there is so much silliness sitting around it.. is Savage Opress the worst Stat Wars name ever? Lots of competition but it’s up there. 
 

This has also got me wanting to watch Rebels.

Andor might well be the saviour of the SW universe, it has saved my love of it for one

[IFR]

57 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

So it’s taken 5 seasons and a lot of episode skipping, consulting numerous ‘essential episodes’ lists but Clone Wars finally became half enjoyable. The Darth Maul, two brothers plot line has at least a thread of quality in there, even if there is so much silliness sitting around it.. is Savage Opress the worst Stat Wars name ever? Lots of competition but it’s up there. 
 

This has also got me wanting to watch Rebels.

Andor might well be the saviour of the SW universe, it has saved my love of it for one

That is some serious dedication in trying to get yourself to like something. I watched the final few episodes of Clone Wars, which adherents of the show claim is some of the best Star Wars material out there...and thought to myself while watching it that is was decent enough, on par with the average Marvel movie. And that pretty much told me the show simply wasn't for me.

I'm glad people like it, but I found it too juvenile to enjoy. It's a bit like Dr Who. I gave that show a chance, watched a few of the episodes with the highest acclaim, and found it to be mostly underwhelming. The tone of the show was too dominantly silly and childish for me to get into.

It's a shame that I'm missing out on those bits of nerd culture, but so it goes. Why put yourself through the crucible of watching something you don't like just because others assure you that it's great?

[Heartofice]

43 minutes ago, IFR said:

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That is some serious dedication in trying to get yourself to like something. I watched the final few episodes of Clone Wars, which adherents of the show claim is some of the best Star Wars material out there...and thought to myself while watching it that is was decent enough, on par with the average Marvel movie. And that pretty much told me the show simply wasn't for me.

I'm glad people like it, but I found it too juvenile to enjoy. It's a bit like Dr Who. I gave that show a chance, watched a few of the episodes with the highest acclaim, and found it to be mostly underwhelming. The tone of the show was too dominantly silly and childish for me to get into.

It's a shame that I'm missing out on those bits of nerd culture, but so it goes. Why put yourself through the crucible of watching something you don't like just because others assure you that it's great?

It’s not an unfair comment! I asked myself the same thing! Luckily these essential lists really highlight which episodes are worth watching, and are honest enough to admit that there aren’t very many!

[Spockydog]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:05 AM, IFR said:

Why put yourself through the crucible of watching something you don't like just because others assure you that it's great?

Watching shows you absolutely hate, then spending hours writing about how much you absolutely hate it, whilst telling others they are wrong for liking the thing that you absolutely hate, seems like quite a popular pastime for a lot of people around here.

[Lord of Oop North]

15 hours ago, Heartofice said:

.. is Savage Opress the worst Stat Wars name ever? Lots of competition but it’s up there. 

Yeah, honestly feels like most Sith are named by Edgelords.

[karaddin]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:05 PM, IFR said:

I watched the final few episodes of Clone Wars, which adherents of the show claim is some of the best Star Wars material out there...and thought to myself while watching it that is was decent enough, on par with the average Marvel movie. And that pretty much told me the show simply wasn't for me.

They're only that good if they've got the weight of dozens of hours with the characters built up, you can't really see the arcs that are being paid off if you don't know any of the arc right up to the pay off. Time for building characters is both the advantage that shows have over movies but also their weakness.

Which isn't a criticism of you for trying it, just an acknowledgement that people who praise it aren't really talking about it in isolation even when we think we are.

One of my favourite moments in Rebels would have exactly the same issue in isolation.

[Derfel Cadarn]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:25 PM, Rhom said:

I'll never forget those early days of the game when you would sit in a Cantina to recover your mind/spirit and you just hung out.  PC Dancers were dancing for you.  A PC band was playing on the stage.  Just a lot of great interaction.  I guess it was just a little TOO sandbox with no real objective to survive once WoW hit the stage, but I did enjoy it for several months while I was nearing the end of school.

I had a Zabrak pikeman/ranger... and it never even occurred to me what I looked like until I had a player accuse me of being a Darth Maul wannabe.  LOL

Was there at the start but struggled to really get into it. Not releasing mounts/vehicles until later was bad, as walking took too long. Player cities, while good, spread the playerbase too thin.

The civil war was was poorly implemented, and missions sucked. Sounded interesting; kill some officer or blow up a captured x-wing etc, but was the exact same mission: kill few guards in middle of nowhere and blow up a bunker (later a flag).

Also releasing Jedi killed the old game. Too many got obsessed with the jedi grind, and working all those professions killed a lot of the game for those whonwere genuinely entertainers etc.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

They're only that good if they've got the weight of dozens of hours with the characters built up, you can't really see the arcs that are being paid off if you don't know any of the arc right up to the pay off. Time for building characters is both the advantage that shows have over movies but also their weakness.

Exactly.  Ahsoka, Maul, Bo-Katan, hell even Rex.  All of their arcs crescendoing into the siege of Mandalore and the aftermath in those last four episodes don't mean nearly as much if you haven't seen the backstory.  Now, that doesn't mean you have to see all of Clone Wars - I did certainly skip quite a few after checking online what specific episodes were about.  And a number of arcs were indeed really stupid, irrelevant, or both.  Thus I did skip them -- thanks internet!  But it's not really useful if you're only going to watch the episodes at the top of some lists instead of enduring some of the admitted cheesy crap that also provides character building. 

And as you mentioned, same goes for Rebels - albeit to a significantly lesser extent.  It's undoubtedly much less of a slog IMO.   

[IFR]

10 hours ago, karaddin said:

They're only that good if they've got the weight of dozens of hours with the characters built up, you can't really see the arcs that are being paid off if you don't know any of the arc right up to the pay off. Time for building characters is both the advantage that shows have over movies but also their weakness.

Which isn't a criticism of you for trying it, just an acknowledgement that people who praise it aren't really talking about it in isolation even when we think we are.

One of my favourite moments in Rebels would have exactly the same issue in isolation.

That's probably true, and I suppose those who enjoy it have literally earned it if they've managed to put themselves through the very low points of the first season.

Personally, I can't do it. There are so many shows and books that have that same strong ending, while also having a strong beginning and a strong middle, that I prefer to focus on those types of stories.

The next show I plan to watch is Peaky Blinders, which I understand is very good throughout. I am also going to watch Gravity Falls, and then the Alec Guiness adaptation of the Smiley series of books by le Carre (and those books are consistently great).

For books, I'll be reading Garth Nix's Sabriel, then I'm going to read some Gene Wolfe books. I also would like to get into Guy Gavriel Kay, so I'll be reading Tigana and the Fionavar Tapestry trilogy. I loved Jack Vance's Dying Earth collection, so I intend to read his Lyonesse series.

And it goes on and on. Just based on what I've read of all of these works, I'm fairly sure I will thoroughly enjoy them from beginning to end. And there's many, many more on the list. There's so much entertainment out there the list is nearly inexhaustible. And it continues to build.

So for me, if a work is deeply flawed in such a way that you literally have to suffer for dozens of hours in order to finally start enjoying it, it seems crazy to go with that option when you have immediately available so many works where you only are provided with entertainment, no suffering.