Star Wars: a story for every fan? (Andor Spoilers)

[Heartofice]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

While I certainly agree that the PT should have been more a Shakespearean tragedy for an adult audience and less a trilogy for children, the great thing about those movies is that they made Star Wars much broader and complex on the big screen.

Personally it feels like the PT broke the SW universe and pretty much created it's own thing. I have a very hard time connecting the two trilogies because they only feel connected in an abstract theoretical way. Any attempt to stitch them together usually means ignoring the lore or style of one or the other.

For instance most of the SW tv shows that Disney are putting out now, and the ST as well is an attempt to cypher the vibes of the OT and kind of try to ignore as much as possible the universe that the PT created. Mandolorian and Andor in particular are attempts to get back to what us older fans imagined SW was, a gritty, grounded tumbledown universe that was like a sci fi version of our own. 

But then you have things like Clone Wars, which yes I am making my way through, which lean a lot more heavily on the PT as a source of inspiration, understandably so. But the universe in Clone Wars seems almost entirely different to the one in the more grounded shows and movies. It is almost high fantasy at times. Yes you could say it's more of a kids show (I really don't think it is) , but a lot of people take it as totally canon. 

So when you say it made SW broader and more complex, you are right, but it also added a lot of elements and possibilities to the world that I wish we could take back and remove. 

[Ran]

The Rick and Morty season finale has a deal of Star Wars nerdery. Heh.

[Myrddin]

I always saw the PT as the end of the "pristine" Old Republic with its shiny sci-fi vibe, before the Dark Times. Before the Empire. The OT was after 25 years of Sith influence that started during the Clone Wars and continued disintegrating society across all levels. 

Granted it's just my head canon. The reality is we didn't see much of the "civilized" galaxy in the OT (Bespin maybe). Even in the ST they stayed away from central civilization centers (except Cantonica). We're mostly exposed to frontier towns/starports, hidden rebel bases and giant Imperial/First Order military fortresses.

[Heartofice]

20 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

I always saw the PT as the end of the "pristine" Old Republic with its shiny sci-fi vibe, before the Dark Times. Before the Empire. The OT was after 25 years of Sith influence that started during the Clone Wars and continued disintegrating society across all levels. 

Granted it's just my head canon. The reality is we didn't see much of the "civilized" galaxy in the OT (Bespin maybe). Even in the ST they stayed away from central civilization centers (except Cantonica). We're mostly exposed to frontier towns/starports, hidden rebel bases and giant Imperial/First Order military fortresses.

Yeah I think that is basically how I imagined it too. The problem I have is that I can sort of accept that stuff, its fine to have a more pristine older version of the world, but then you have weird stupid shit like General Grievous that is so cartoony and dumb, all the droids are a fucking travesty, Gungans and underwater kingdoms... Clone Wars has all these crazy worlds and far out aliens and big giant fantastical concepts... none of which fits with a more grounded SW universe. At times it just feels like it's 2 completely unconnected visions of the same thing.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Heartofice

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Personally it feels like the PT broke the SW universe and pretty much created it's own thing. I have a very hard time connecting the two trilogies because they only feel connected in an abstract theoretical way. Any attempt to stitch them together usually means ignoring the lore or style of one or the other.

There are some inconsistencies, but the differences in style one can actually interpret as expressing different eras.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

For instance most of the SW tv shows that Disney are putting out now, and the ST as well is an attempt to cypher the vibes of the OT and kind of try to ignore as much as possible the universe that the PT created. Mandolorian and Andor in particular are attempts to get back to what us older fans imagined SW was, a gritty, grounded tumbledown universe that was like a sci fi version of our own.

Mandalorian is well rooted in (post-)PT lore, with crucial characters from TCW and Rebels playing roles there.

The OT was as much a fairy tale world as the PT, the only real difference is the used look. The gritty part of things is that we are shown people fighting for their survival, but that's just part of this very specific setting, not Star Wars as such.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

But then you have things like Clone Wars, which yes I am making my way through, which lean a lot more heavily on the PT as a source of inspiration, understandably so. But the universe in Clone Wars seems almost entirely different to the one in the more grounded shows and movies. It is almost high fantasy at times. Yes you could say it's more of a kids show (I really don't think it is) , but a lot of people take it as totally canon.

I know that people were pissed about Luke having telekinetic abilities in TESB and the Emperor shooting lightning in ROTJ, but Star Wars was always magical to a point. People then rush things and pretend just because they watched the movies that have been out so far means they know everything ... but they don't. Having more magic and fantasy in the universe isn't wrong.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

So when you say it made SW broader and more complex, you are right, but it also added a lot of elements and possibilities to the world that I wish we could take back and remove. 

That would then feel like a poorer, bleaker, more boring universe, like going with TOS as the only Star Trek there is.

29 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

I always saw the PT as the end of the "pristine" Old Republic with its shiny sci-fi vibe, before the Dark Times. Before the Empire. The OT was after 25 years of Sith influence that started during the Clone Wars and continued disintegrating society across all levels. 

Yes, that's a pretty good way to interpret things. There is nothing wrong with the different style. Although one can easily enough complain about the tone.

29 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Granted it's just my head canon. The reality is we didn't see much of the "civilized" galaxy in the OT (Bespin maybe). Even in the ST they stayed away from central civilization centers (except Cantonica). We're mostly exposed to frontier towns/starports, hidden rebel bases and giant Imperial/First Order military fortresses.

The OT is basically the Star Wars galaxy from the point of view of people on spaceships and in military outposts and on backwater worlds. It is like viewing the US from the point of view of a movie taking place in the Vietnam jungle and on aircraft carriers.

We only get a grasp of the galaxy in the PT and TCW.

If you look at Andor it pretty much has the same problems as ANH has insofar as diversity and representation are concerned. ANH had but one woman and only white men, while Andor has only humans in a galaxy full of alien species. Even more so, it is ridiculous how Cassian's home planet is presented as ethnically homogenous. While it may make sense that only a specific human population might colonize a distant world, there is just no way that those looks would then be representative of only that planet if humans of all races and sizes are all over the place in this galaxy.

People tracking down Cassian because of his race/looks was a joke.

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are some inconsistencies, but the differences in style one can actually interpret as expressing different eras.

I have to disagree. There is an extent to which that is true, but it's hard to square the circle when you are watching SW or Andor that there are zombie bug aliens and giant over the top battle robots. The difference in style and tone between the two things is really just too dramatic to try and pretend they are just an expression of different eras. Especially given the small amount of time we are talking about.
 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mandalorian is well rooted in (post-)PT lore, with crucial characters from TCW and Rebels playing roles there.

The OT was as much a fairy tale world as the PT, the only real difference is the used look. The gritty part of things is that we are shown people fighting for their survival, but that's just part of this very specific setting, not Star Wars as such.

Tonally Madalorian is a hold over from the OT. It's doing it's darndest to emulate that. Yes there are a handful of easter eggs and little things in the lore that fit with parts of the PT, but it's tonally mostly nothing like the PT or the sillier parts of Clone Wars.
 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That would then feel like a poorer, bleaker, more boring universe, like going with TOS as the only Star Trek there is.

Matter of opinion, but personally I think almost everything that has happened since Return of the Jedi has been a bit of a disappointment. There have been moments of class, like the REAL clone wars show, or Rogue One or Andor, or bits of Mando. But outside of that the movies have been mostly very bad, the tv shows are really not great on the whole. I would happily scrap the whole lot.
 

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I have to disagree. There is an extent to which that is true, but it's hard to square the circle when you are watching SW or Andor that there are zombie bug aliens and giant over the top battle robots. The difference in style and tone between the two things is really just too dramatic to try and pretend they are just an expression of different eras. Especially given the small amount of time we are talking about.

ANH gave us a gigantic, over the top battle station blowing up planets which can be destroyed with a single shot. This kind of thing was always part of Star Wars. The OT would have been more like the PT if Lucas had had the tech and means to make it so. You just have to look at some of the art work for the OT which wasn't used because it was either too expensive or didn't work.

But I meant that the pristine aesthetics of the PT are an expression of a different era, less so content and tone. As I said the somewhat dumbed down, childish take on what was actually a Shakespearean tragedy and a complex political story didn't exactly work very well.

Also, of course, the difference between a depressive droid with a British accent and Jar Jar isn't that great, all things considered, which is why 3PO and Jar Jar make a pretty good team in some episodes of TCW. Or compare Jabba to General Grievous - they are not that different. Jabba is a ridiculous creature, too, if you think about it for five minutes.

29 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Tonally Madalorian is a hold over from the OT. It's doing it's darndest to emulate that. Yes there are a handful of easter eggs and little things in the lore that fit with parts of the PT, but it's tonally mostly nothing like the PT or the sillier parts of Clone Wars.

I see a lot of TCW in Mandalorian, to be honest, with the whole western vibe the show is going for (an entire TCW episode retells the story of the Seven Samurai/Glorious Seven). Aesthetically it draws heavily on the OT, but that makes sense since it is a continuation of the OT.

And content-wise the entire Mandalorian stuff is all either a continuation of TCW and Rebels stuff or drawn from EU lore about Mandalorians.

In general I've no issue with the more gritty Star Wars aesthetics ... although I think the ST failed spectacularly, in part because they just ripped off the OT. They could have established a new aesthetic easily enough, like the PT did, whilst still retaining elements of the other two trilogies. It was 30 years later, after all, more than enough time for the galaxy to look different.

29 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Matter of opinion, but personally I think almost everything that has happened since Return of the Jedi has been a bit of a disappointment. There have been moments of class, like the REAL clone wars show, or Rogue One or Andor, or bits of Mando. But outside of that the movies have been mostly very bad, the tv shows are really not great on the whole. I would happily scrap the whole lot.

If something was over the top and childish then most of the old Clone Wars show. I mean, the Ventress-Anakin duel is great, but most of the other stuff just isn't. I like it as over the top Star Wars content, but it ain't great at all.

[Heartofice]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

ANH gave us a gigantic, over the top battle station blowing up planets which can be destroyed with a single shot. This kind of thing was always part of Star Wars. The OT would have been more like the PT if Lucas had had the tech and means to make it so. You just have to look at some of the art work for the OT which wasn't used because it was either too expensive or didn't work.

I think the difference is that the sci-fi in ANH or the OT, even when it was silly, always felt grounded in reality. These were creations that you could actually believe existed. The Death Star is an enormous construction (built out of battleship models) that had heft and weight and was treated in a serious manner.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Or compare Jabba to General Grievous - they are not that different. Jabba is a ridiculous creature, too, if you think about it for five minutes.

Oh they are very different. Jabba is a big slobbering worm creature that can barely move, but his enormous weight felt real, he was just a big obese dude.

 

You could see how something like Jabba could exist (well in ROTJ, not so much the horrible extended edition scene in ANH) in that world, and he was tonally consistent with his surroundings and everything else in the trilogy. 

General Grievous on the other hand is a 4 handed uberninja robot dude who flips around, does crazy sword moves, has a silly cough and talks like a cartoon character. He is entirely consistent tonally with the PT, with a spinning Yoda and lava jumping fights, but doesn't fit at all well into the OT. 

My test would be to say if General Grievous turned up in ANH would it feel natural? No it really wouldn't. Your first reaction would be 'wtf is this insane 4 sword wielding death robot doing in a universe where most robots are glorified toasters'. He would feel incredibly out of place. There are a lot of things like that in the PT that just feel odd and I personally think are incredibly poor design decisions that we unfortunately cannot not row back from.
 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I see a lot of TCW in Mandalorian, to be honest, with the whole western vibe the show is going for (an entire TCW episode retells the story of the Seven Samurai/Glorious Seven). Aesthetically it draws heavily on the OT, but that makes sense since it is a continuation of the OT.

And content-wise the entire Mandalorian stuff is all either a continuation of TCW and Rebels stuff or drawn from EU lore about Mandalorians.

Yes there is quite a lot in season 2 that is taken from TCW, and I would actually say it's one of the reasons the show has gone downhill quite a bit. I'm sure for people who like TCW these easter eggs were cool, but I found it all a bit tedious. 
Thinking back to that first episode of Mando, it's influences are clear. It wants to be a space western and it wants to evoke the feeling people got from the OT. That it eventually pulled in story elements from TCW doesn't mean it isn't a direct reaction to the poor decisions made in the PT.

Speaking of which, the entire sequel trilogy is also a direct attempt to scrub away every element of the PT as much as possible and to try and erase it from history. JJ Abrams is not someone with the capability or imagination to replace it with something new, but you can see that the whole motivation behind that trilogy was to try and go back to when Star Wars was good and manufacture that feeling again. It didn't work because those movies are just as bad, but its very telling that we've seen so many SW products that have gone out of their way to hark back to the OT and try and pretend the PT never happened.
 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Heartofice

[Slurktan]

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

You could see how something like Jabba could exist (well in ROTJ, not so much the horrible extended edition scene in ANH) in that world, and he was tonally consistent with his surroundings and everything else in the trilogy. 

General Grievous on the other hand is a 4 handed uberninja robot dude who flips around, does crazy sword moves, has a silly cough and talks like a cartoon character. He is entirely consistent tonally with the PT, with a spinning Yoda and lava jumping fights, but doesn't fit at all well into the OT. 

My test would be to say if General Grievous turned up in ANH would it feel natural? No it really wouldn't. Your first reaction would be 'wtf is this insane 4 sword wielding death robot doing in a universe where most robots are glorified toasters'. He would feel incredibly out of place. There are a lot of things like that in the PT that just feel odd and I personally think are incredibly poor design decisions that we unfortunately cannot not row back from.

 

Do you not understand why there might not be 4 sword wielding death robots in a universe with a devastating galaxy spanning war with such things just concluded a relatively short time ago when they were the opposition?

[Slurktan]

UGh

Edited December 13, 2022 by Slurktan

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think the difference is that the sci-fi in ANH or the OT, even when it was silly, always felt grounded in reality. These were creations that you could actually believe existed. The Death Star is an enormous construction (built out of battleship models) that had heft and weight and was treated in a serious manner.

How serious they take it you can debate. Leia doesn't seem to care (much) about the destruction of Alderaan, nor is anyone on Yavin later in panic when a planet-destroying station is about to blow them up. And, again, it is a moon-sized station that can be blown up by one shot in a matter of seconds. That is ridiculous.

I don't think clumsy or big robots are harder to swallow than the Death Star. Also, in context, both R2 and 3PO are jokes. Nobody in this universe seems to really need a 'protocol droid' ... and what the hell is the point of an astromech droid if it cannot properly communicate? Yes, okay, in the X-Wing the sounds are translated, but R2 does a lot of his stunts when pretty much everybody shouldn't understand him.

Chewie suffers from a similar problem.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Oh they are very different. Jabba is a big slobbering worm creature that can barely move, but his enormous weight felt real, he was just a big obese dude.

Not only is Jabba not a very convincing character in ROTJ (meaning he is clearly, obviously a bad prop), but the entire setting of the powerful mobster being some immobile slug makes no sense at all. What criminal would obey a creature like that? Jabba is completely helpless without henchmen and servants. If he was just a rich dude, this could fly to a point (although Cordell also ended up feeding Mason Verger to the swines, so who knows...) ... but not in an environment where the appearance of weakness gets you killed very quickly.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

General Grievous on the other hand is a 4 handed uberninja robot dude who flips around, does crazy sword moves, has a silly cough and talks like a cartoon character. He is entirely consistent tonally with the PT, with a spinning Yoda and lava jumping fights, but doesn't fit at all well into the OT.

Grievous pretty much embodies Star Wars. He has cheesy lines (ANH has some of the worst dialogue in movie history: 'If you strike me down I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.' 'I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.' 'Nobody is going to stop us this time.'), a memorable trait (the cough), gimmicks, etc.

He is very much another version of Darth Vader, Boba Fett, and Lando Calrissian.

Spinning Yoda only seems to be an issue for the people who imagined Yoda as a decrepit old imp who would be crushed by Vader in five seconds. I mean, if the Force is strong with Yoda, why should he not use it to fight with his lightsaber?

I agree that Yoda should do more than just that - but I see no reason not to imagine Yoda learning and fighting with a lightsaber like any other Jedi would.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

My test would be to say if General Grievous turned up in ANH would it feel natural? No it really wouldn't. Your first reaction would be 'wtf is this insane 4 sword wielding death robot doing in a universe where most robots are glorified toasters'. He would feel incredibly out of place. There are a lot of things like that in the PT that just feel odd and I personally think are incredibly poor design decisions that we unfortunately cannot not row back from.

Grievous isn't a robot, but a version of Vader. A dude who is so crippled that he has even more cyborg implants than Vader.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Speaking of which, the entire sequel trilogy is also a direct attempt to scrub away every element of the PT as much as possible and to try and erase it from history. JJ Abrams is not someone with the capability or imagination to replace it with something new, but you can see that the whole motivation behind that trilogy was to try and go back to when Star Wars was good and manufacture that feeling again. It didn't work because those movies are just as bad, but its very telling that we've seen so many SW products that have gone out of their way to hark back to the OT and try and pretend the PT never happened.

I don't think so. I mean, yes, the ST didn't reference the PT all that much, neither aesthetically nor content-wise, but I'd not say that this mean they wanted to erase it. Anyone making a sequel to the OT would focus on characters and themes from the OT and less so the PT.

Of course, only a minority of Star Wars fans these days actually dislikes the PT, so it wasn't that wise to just rip off the OT ... and do it in a manner that added literally nothing of substance to the franchise.

It is only the older generation(s) that have real issues with the PT. The younger folks grew up with it and for some of them it and TCW, etc. is even more Star Wars than the (somewhat) clunky movies twice or thrice their age.

[Heartofice]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Grievous pretty much embodies Star Wars. He has cheesy lines (ANH has some of the worst dialogue in movie history: 'If you strike me down I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.' 'I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.' 'Nobody is going to stop us this time.'), a memorable trait (the cough), gimmicks, etc.

He is very much another version of Darth Vader, Boba Fett, and Lando Calrissian.

Spinning Yoda only seems to be an issue for the people who imagined Yoda as a decrepit old imp who would be crushed by Vader in five seconds. I mean, if the Force is strong with Yoda, why should he not use it to fight with his lightsaber?

I agree that Yoda should do more than just that - but I see no reason not to imagine Yoda learning and fighting with a lightsaber like any other Jedi would.

Have to disagree with all of this. 

Grevious and Spinning Yoda kind of embody what the PT is. Basically a cartoon. That is really the problem. The PT movies are cartoons that seem to exist with a wildly different set of physics, dynamics, rules and aesthetics to the OT. It goes deeper than the visuals too, even though visually they really are cartoons. 

Spinning Yoda is... it's just silly. It is akin to a computer game character. I'm not sure there is a good argument why he should be pinballing around the place. 

It's fine if younger generations like and enjoy that, or if they like and enjoy the computer game nature of many of the sequences in the PT. My point is that these things do not sit easily with the OT, they seem incredibly incongruent with it.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Grevious and Spinning Yoda kind of embody what the PT is. Basically a cartoon. That is really the problem. The PT movies are cartoons that seem to exist with a wildly different set of physics, dynamics, rules and aesthetics to the OT. It goes deeper than the visuals too, even though visually they really are cartoons.

While this might look silly, it is not fundamentally different from Palpatine shooting lightning. That, too, is completely impossible and makes no sense. It is also testament to the fact that the OT isn't consistent in itself. In ANH there is no telekineses, just as there is no lightning nonsense in TESB. Telepathy/Empathy also only shows up in TESB, ditto with Force prophecy visions.

If Yoda is to be a Jedi, he should be able to fight. And if he can fight, he has to move fast and somehow have the same range as bigger people. Else he would be defeated before a battle even began.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

It's fine if younger generations like and enjoy that, or if they like and enjoy the computer game nature of many of the sequences in the PT. My point is that these things do not sit easily with the OT, they seem incredibly incongruent with it.

That is more due to the OT being made in a time when proper special effects in movies were not yet possible (I mean, just (re-)watch the entirety of the horror movies of the 1980s and you are in not for a scare but a laugh, especially when something dissolves or explodes), not because anyone intended for the OT to look in a special way. I'd also say that the starfighter chase scenes in the OT are computer game material as well.

Granted, lightsaber mechanics changed - originally they were supposed to be very hard to handle, and that changed along the way. But the beginnings of that are in TESB and ROTJ not only in TPM. The latter just added more jumping around stuff.

[Myrddin]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Spinning Yoda is... it's just silly. It is akin to a computer game character. I'm not sure there is a good argument why he should be pinballing around the place. 

I was in late 20's when Yoda unveiled his spinning trick. And it did not bother me at all. Star Wars always dipped heavily into the fairytale end of the pool. Spinning Yoda fits the same way spinning Maul does. (Or little Anakin for that matter). I just choose to suspend a certain level of disbelief and enjoy the movies for what they are.

That's probably one reason I enjoyed Andor so much. It exceeded my expectations on almost every level. Plus, Luthen is also a follower of spinning trick to take out TIEs. So there's that too.  

Edited December 13, 2022 by Myrddin

[JGP]

2 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

I was in late 20's when Yoda unveiled his spinning trick. And it did not bother me at all. Star Wars always dipped heavily into the fairytale end of the pool. Spinning Yoda fits the same way spinning Maul does. (Or little Anakin for that matter). I just choose to suspend a certain level of disbelief and enjoy the movies for what they are.

That's probably once reason I enjoyed Andor so much. It exceeded my expectations on almost every level. Plus, Luthen is also a follower of spinning trick to take out TIEs. So there's that too.  

In any non-SW content after an incident like that, Luthen would have to get a new ship. 

Would be refreshing if they spent at a little time on that next season. Luthen and Cassian either accessing parts and components Luthen has stashed somewhere, or some small thefts. Kit out the new ship. Maybe the hellish beginnings of the Rebel Fleet. 

Can't wait for S2, whatever happens. I don't know what to safely do with these expectations however lol 

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Grevious and Spinning Yoda kind of embody what the PT is. Basically a cartoon. That is really the problem.

I'm not really following this back and forth, but can't help but mention ROTJ had Ewoks.  "And let's face it, Ewoks suck dude."  - Hugo Reyes, LOST.

Edited December 13, 2022 by DMC

[Jaxom 1974]

Follow in what way? It's like watching you and Ty in the politics thread droning on and on and on... 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Jaxom 1974

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I'm not really following this back and forth, but can't help but mention ROTJ had Ewoks.  "And let's face it, Ewoks suck dude."  - Hugo Reyes, LOST.

In a sense, even Wookiees suck. I mean, seriously, walking bear-like animals talking in animal sounds which are supposed to be a language people can actually understand? Han understanding Chewie makes about as much sense as Luke 'understanding' R2.

And in context the Ewoks and their ridiculous 'victory' over the Empire suck more than the battle droids of the PT. After all, they are intended to be bad and crappy soldiers which is why the clones of the Republic are superior to them. You can make the case that battle droids should be more superior in this universe and whatnot ... but this ain't the Terminator franchise. It is Star Wars, and the very definition of a robot in Star Wars is that it sucks. Especially if it can talk.

The Ewoks suck hard because if those silly teddy bears can defeat Palpatine's Empire in the final OT movie, then this Empire and its soldiers were always a joke. One can argue that the very concept there sucks, but it is really the execution that makes it suck. The way they triumph is just not believable. This could have worked if the Endor natives truly had had some mysterious powers the Emperor/Empire had either not known about or at least and severely underestimated.

The case one can certainly make is that during most of the PT writing and pacing and the basic plot do suck - unlike with the OT. But I think you cannot really make the case that the OT is more mature or serious than the PT insofar as content and plot are concerned. The OT is a very simple good vs. evil story while - for better or worse - the PT is about more complex political and (badly presented) romantic issues. The execution of the Anakin-Padmé romance sucks - but as a romance it is more complex and mature than Han and Leia's clumsy flirting in TESB. They act like thirteen-year-olds who never saw the other sex naked much less had a (serious) relationship before. In AOTC, the script sets up a romance on the basis of two people actually getting to know each other, talking about things that are important to each of them, etc. All Han and Leia have is chemistry (which is what makes it work very well on screen, of course).

3 hours ago, Myrddin said:

I was in late 20's when Yoda unveiled his spinning trick. And it did not bother me at all. Star Wars always dipped heavily into the fairytale end of the pool. Spinning Yoda fits the same way spinning Maul does. (Or little Anakin for that matter). I just choose to suspend a certain level of disbelief and enjoy the movies for what they are.

I'd say that Lucas dropped the ball to a point by not adding really cool 'magical abilities' to the (grand) Jedi Masters. There was potential there to add more features to Yoda and Palpatine both than just repeat what had already been established (although it was a good thing to give the lightning thing also to Darth Tyranus so it wasn't 'the special ability of the Emperor').

But the general uproar of the old guard back when AOTC came out was the notion that Yoda carried a lightsaber and actually used it in a fight. Many in the fandom had conceived the notion that Yoda was somehow above this kind of thing, either not fighting at all or doing it only with the Force ... when we really didn't have any inclination or reason to actually believe either. In a sense Yoda's X-Wing feat from TESB practically hammers home the fact that the guy can fight. If he can do that, he can do a lot of other crazy stuff. Using the Force to make himself very fast and very strong would clearly be one of things he might be able to pull off.

General Grievous is kind of a letdown insofar as he isn't that dangerous as he was in the old Clone Wars cartoon ... but design and character make him a very unique and memorable individual. I'd have preferred it if he had been more menacing and deadly, but his lines are really great, totally in line with the crappier lines from ANH or ROTJ.

Where Lucas really dropped the ball was with Darth Maul. Regardless what you think about his return in TCW, but the guy has already more lines in the first TCW he shows up than he has in the entirety of TPM ... and once he regains his sanity he shows more charisma and acumen in his first scene than he ever did in TPM, too.

I still don't think Lucas should have brought him back (it may have been better to use Ventress or some other (secret) apprentice of Sidious or Tyranus for such a plot, but bringing him back actually turned this extra into a character.

3 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Follow in what way? It's like watching you and Ty in the politics thread droning on and on and on... 

Hey, we are having a pleasant conversation.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Follow in what way? It's like watching you and Ty in the politics thread droning on and on and on... 

Hey!  Me and Ty drone on and on outside of the politics threads too!

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The case one can certainly make is that during most of the PT writing and pacing and the basic plot do suck - unlike with the OT. But I think you cannot really make the case that the OT is more mature or serious than the PT insofar as content and plot are concerned.

I'd say the tone of Phantom Menace - with of course child Anakin's plot - is significantly more kiddy/less mature than the OT, even accounting for the Ewoks.  But as far as the last two movies, especially RotS, yeah I don't see that at all.  The dialogue is just worse/much more cringeworthy in its cheesiness, not necessarily less "mature."

[RumHam]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In a sense, even Wookiees suck. I mean, seriously, walking bear-like animals talking in animal sounds which are supposed to be a language people can actually understand? Han understanding Chewie makes about as much sense as Luke 'understanding' R2.

I'm just curious are you familiar with Groot from the marvel movies?