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What was Cersei's plan for Stannis and Renly?


Floki of the Ironborn
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In AFFC, Cersei laments how she had to kill off Robert before she could deal with his brothers.

Was she planning to poison them? Pit them against each other? Neither of them like her at all, and I'm betting that they didn't trust her enough to let her get too close. Plus even Robert would have to notice that both his brothers were dead. Wouldn't he have suspected Cersei at least a little bit?

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1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

In AFFC, Cersei laments how she had to kill off Robert before she could deal with his brothers.

Was she planning to poison them? Pit them against each other? Neither of them like her at all, and I'm betting that they didn't trust her enough to let her get too close. Plus even Robert would have to notice that both his brothers were dead. Wouldn't he have suspected Cersei at least a little bit?

Judging by Cersie's behavior and what we've seen of her internal thoughts.....she had no plan.  She never has.

Things happen.  Cersie retroactively gives herself credit for events totally beyond her control while blaming anything that she fails to predict (so, everything) on her lack of a peen.  That's basically her entire plot.  She sees traitors everywhere, has actual loyal people tortured to death, spouts nonsense about how everyone else is an idiot and how she was overlooked because she's female, when in fact she's legitimately terrible at everything, regardless of what is between her legs (not to minimize the actual male-lead nature of that world...that's beyond doubt....but there are multiple female hero characters in GRRMs world and not a single one of them try to use it as a crutch - completely counter to Cersie's behavior and internal monologue...I mean she specifically views her coon as her primary weapon and not only tries to use it as such, but tries to impart upon Sansa that it's the only thing that's important...truly reprehensible.) 

The only foe she's actually correctly identified was Ned Stark, and the only reason she got that right is because he was directly replacing somebody who already knew her secret.  A secret which is very clearly NOT a secret at all.  She's an extremely powerful imbecile.

Edited by Ring3r
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1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

I don't think that this refers to any specific plan, rather than the need to deal with them. After all, Renly was plotting to have her replaced with Margaery and Stannis to have her executed. 

Now that you mention it, I still don't understand how Renly is portrayed in the first book. He wants to have Robert set Cersei aside to marry Margaery, but on what grounds? And why? He denies knowing about the incest between Cersei and Jaime, so was it just because of his ties to the Tyrells? What would he have gained from that?

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11 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Now that you mention it, I still don't understand how Renly is portrayed in the first book. He wants to have Robert set Cersei aside to marry Margaery, but on what grounds? And why? He denies knowing about the incest between Cersei and Jaime, so was it just because of his ties to the Tyrells? What would he have gained from that?

Obviously he did know about the incest.  His homosexuality precluded him from pointing the finger there.  The Lannisters could easily have pointed it right back.  His secret homosexuality severely compromised any accusations he could have made. Regardless of how anybody feels about that, it presented a major problem.

 

Unpopular opinion, but this was probably Renly's fatal flaw. We don't view things the same way now, but in a world where birth-right matters.....homosexuality would have presented a major problem of succession.  Regardless of how good a king Renly would have been (and he was pretty good)......could he produce an heir?  It's an uncomfortable question to our current society but if stability depended on.....a stable line, with son raised by father.....well....that would throw a wrench in things.  It calls into question the legitimacy of his heirs.  Not saying its fair, not saying that's how government should work (obviously dynasties are...uh....not good, to this day)....but it would have presented a major question/problem

Edited by Ring3r
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3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

What would he have gained from that?

It would get Cersei out the way if successful. Maybe that was enough.

3 hours ago, Ring3r said:

could he produce an heir? 

I think so. Stannis taunts him about it when they meet, but Renly doesn't seem concerned about it. Now admittedly that may have been for show, but I think that since the future of his dynasty depends on it, he could close his eyes and get on with it, so to speak. In addition, Margaery and Loras look very similar, which can't hurt.

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Cersei didn't have any plan, she has no sense of strategy and only plan things (in a terrible way anyway) on the fly.

I agree. It's an especially silly plan. She wants to kill both Stannis and Renly after Jon Arryn had just died. Robert isn't the sharpest tool in the shed but I think he'd start to realise something was up if his Hand and Father Figure, then both his brothers being on the small council died of 'illness' (assuming poison is used), or just died in a relatively close timeframe. And Cersei being Cersei would no doubt try to fill their positions with Lannisters after they died. She said she was going to deal with them, but had no actual plan on how to do so.

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6 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Now that you mention it, I still don't understand how Renly is portrayed in the first book. He wants to have Robert set Cersei aside to marry Margaery, but on what grounds? And why? He denies knowing about the incest between Cersei and Jaime, so was it just because of his ties to the Tyrells? What would he have gained from that?

When has Renly believed that laws are sacrosant and ought to be respected?

He wants Cersei gone because he believes her a threat.

 

6 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Obviously he did know about the incest.  His homosexuality precluded him from pointing the finger there.  The Lannisters could easily have pointed it right back.  His secret homosexuality severely compromised any accusations he could have made. Regardless of how anybody feels about that, it presented a major problem.

Homosexualty cannot be proven unless caught in the act, else is just slander easily dismissed.

And he doesn't know about the incest nor anyone ever believed he knew about it.

 

6 hours ago, Ring3r said:

but in a world where birth-right matters.....homosexuality would have presented a major problem of succession.  Regardless of how good a king Renly would have been (and he was pretty good)......could he produce an heir? 

It's been known that homosexuals kings and nobles have sired children.

This is a terrible argument, not an uncomfortable one.

 

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6 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Now that you mention it, I still don't understand how Renly is portrayed in the first book. He wants to have Robert set Cersei aside to marry Margaery, but on what grounds? And why? He denies knowing about the incest between Cersei and Jaime, so was it just because of his ties to the Tyrells? What would he have gained from that?

Renly's only and whole argument is strength, that it's by the power of his army that he'll become king. He also doesn't want to acknowledge that Stannis is the rightful king, and so that he should support his brother, instead treating him as if he was another power-hungry and less successful usurper.

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3 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Renly's only and whole argument is strength, that it's by the power of his army that he'll become king.

He also argues that he'd be the Best King Ever™.

3 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

He also doesn't want to acknowledge that Stannis is the rightful king, and so that he should support his brother, instead treating him as if he was another power-hungry and less successful usurper.

To be fair, Stannis had no proof of the thing which would make him the rightful king.

Quote
"Were it true? Do you name me a liar?"
 
"Can you prove any word of this fable?"
 
Stannis ground his teeth.

Why should Renly believe him when he has no proof?

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On 11/26/2022 at 6:54 AM, frenin said:

Homosexualty cannot be proven unless caught in the act, else is just slander easily dismissed.

And he doesn't know about the incest nor anyone ever believed he knew about it.

 

Well, sorry, but this just runs counter to....reality. Renly's proclivities were an open secret among all the high-born.  Everyone knew.  A little bit of historical research will tell you that it was a known thing, and at least among high-born people, it was generally tolerated so long as an heir was produced.

And yeah....Renly definitely knew about the incest. Everyone in the inner circle knew. Tywin knew, and steadfastly refused to acknowledge it.

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On 11/26/2022 at 1:16 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Now that you mention it, I still don't understand how Renly is portrayed in the first book. He wants to have Robert set Cersei aside to marry Margaery, but on what grounds? And why? He denies knowing about the incest between Cersei and Jaime, so was it just because of his ties to the Tyrells? What would he have gained from that?

It confuses me as well, particularly Mace's ambitions to have a grandchild sit the Iron Throne; if Robert divorces Cersei Tywin would take offense via overreaction or Joffrey would try and murder any children Robert and Margaery have together. If Renly has Robert take Margaery as his mistress he's no closer to having his children on the Iron Throne because they'd be illegitimate... or Cersei has them murdered. Plus being a mistress to the King is a very precarious position as Bethany Bracken found out the hard way.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

It confuses me as well, particularly Mace's ambitions to have a grandchild sit the Iron Throne; if Robert divorces Cersei Tywin would take offense via overreaction or Joffrey would try and murder any children Robert and Margaery have together. If Renly has Robert take Margaery as his mistress he's no closer to having his children on the Iron Throne because they'd be illegitimate... or Cersei has them murdered. Plus being a mistress to the King is a very precarious position as Bethany Bracken found out the hard way.

Poor Bethany Bracken. And Ser Toyne :(

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On 11/28/2022 at 8:35 AM, Ring3r said:

Well, sorry, but this just runs counter to....reality. Renly's proclivities were an open secret among all the high-born.  Everyone knew.

And open secret and a provable fact are two different things. It's the reason why the Lannisters still hold the throne even when the  court has come to believe the bastardry tale.

So long you cannot prove something, it is just a rumour easily dismissed with enough allies and Renly had those.

 

On 11/28/2022 at 8:35 AM, Ring3r said:

A little bit of historical research will tell you that it was a known thing, and at least among high-born people, it was generally tolerated so long as an heir was produced.

I don't really know what are you trying to say.

You're both casting doubts that he could father children because he's gay and then backtracking?

 

On 11/28/2022 at 8:35 AM, Ring3r said:

And yeah....Renly definitely knew about the incest.

No one believes that in the books.

 

On 11/28/2022 at 8:35 AM, Ring3r said:

Everyone in the inner circle knew.

Ditto.

 

On 11/28/2022 at 8:35 AM, Ring3r said:

Tywin knew, and steadfastly refused to acknowledge it.

Tywin did not know.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

No one believes that in the books.

Ditto.

Tywin did not know.

If he knew about the incest, he would have mentioned it to Ned when he was trying to more or less overthrow Joffrey by advising Ned to kidnap the children. He did not.

Likewise, when he is parlaying with Stannis, he denies knowing and demands proof when confronted with the fact he was jumping the rightful line of succession, which to him doesn't really matter because he knows the Lannisters want him dead and gone. The result of which is him keeping his alliance with the Tyrells because he knows strength and allies will keep him safe.

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Cersei says that she had plans but the reality was that she had none.

She says that she couldn't really get rid of Robert until after she had dealt with his brothers. And since she was seeking to seize power by way of ruling as Queen Regent during Joffrey's minority that left her with a narrow window.

Besides, Stannis is and has always been her greatest threat. He also happens to be exceptionally difficult to assassinate.

That's why it had been 15 years (and Joffrey was on the cusp of majority) and nothing about Robert or his brothers had been done.

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Varys gives us a glimpse: 

"Oh, indeed. Cersei gave him the wineskins, and told him it was Robert's favorite vintage." The eunuch shrugged. "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray … the forest is the abbatoir of the gods. It was not wine that killed the king. It was your mercy."

Hunting or melee would have done for renly. Stannis would be a much tougher nut to crack but not impossible. And again, if he was absent after Robert and Renly are removed from the picture, Joffrey / Cersei can feel free to force him to kneel and swear allegiance or be branded an enemy of the crown. Stannis isn't popular and has few allies. It's the primary reason why Renly went to the reach and married Marg, to make sure the crown couldn't hunt him down friendless and alone.

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