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The single most unsung hero of the series: Mirri Maaz Duur


Tyrosh Lannister
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1 minute ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

What app is this? Was it personally reviewed and okay'd by GRRM?

It's the World of Ice and Fire app. Just checked the credits. It's actually Elio Garcia and Linda Antonson who wrote it.

I guess they could tell us if it is open to interpretation, or if I should prepare to eat my words. 

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1 minute ago, The Sleeper said:

It's the World of Ice and Fire app. Just checked the credits. It's actually Elio Garcia and Linda Antonson who wrote it.

I guess they could tell us if it is open to interpretation, or if I should prepare to eat my words. 

If its by them then I'd assume GRRM was okay with it

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On 11/27/2022 at 12:25 AM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Even if Mirri intentionally killed Rhaego, it was totally justified. 

Strongly disagree. Killing an innocent baby for what he may do in the future is a very slippery slope.

Khal Drogo, on the other hand, what did Daenerys really expect? That Mirri would help her mass-murdering, slaving, rapist husband who razed Mirri's home and slaughtered all her friends and family? So he could continue his quest to pillage, murder and rape?

Edited by Craving Peaches
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Khal Drogo is one of the most despicable villains of the story.  He led the murder and rape of half of Mirri's village, just to sell the surviving half into slavery so he could invade Westeros and murder, rape, and enslave more people:

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"And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing.  I will take my khalasar west to where the world ends, and ride the wooden horses across the black salt water as no khal has done before. I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children as slaves, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains."

Good riddance to Dany's sun and stars.  Mirri Maz Duur did the world a favor.

Rhaego is more complicated.  Kiling children is never okay, but it gets muddled if Rhaego truly is the "stallion who mounts the world": a mass-murderer worse than his father.  Obviously he wasn't, but can prophecies be prevented in that fictional world?  Would Rhaego have murdered and raped half the world if he had been allowed to live?  At the very least, Mirri Maz Duur thought he would... and so did Daenerys.

But two people took part in Rhaego's murder: Mirri Maz Duur and Daenerys Targaryen:

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Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid."

Dany's thoughts never confirm that she knew she was sacrificing her son's life, but her thoughts will never confirm it, because as Mirri rightfully said, Dany was lying to herself and she "won't look back".  Dany will never "look back" because she doesn't believe in guilt or regret.  Dany was willing to sacrifice her own life to save Drogo's, and there is no way she truly believed that a horse would pay for her husband's life.

Note that Dany said "Do it" before Mirri said to bring Drogo's horse.  Dany knew whom she was sacrificing.

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"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

"No," Mirri Maz Duur promised. "Not your death, Khaleesi."

Dany trembled with relief. "Do it."

 

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1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Khal Drogo is one of the most despicable villains of the story.  He led the murder and rape of half of Mirri's village, just to sell the surviving half into slavery so he could invade Westeros and murder, rape, and enslave more people:

Good riddance to Dany's sun and stars.  Mirri Maz Duur did the world a favor.

Rhaego is more complicated.  Kiling children is never okay, but it gets muddled if Rhaego truly is the "stallion who mounts the world": a mass-murderer worse than his father.  Obviously he wasn't, but can prophecies be prevented in that fictional world?  Would Rhaego have murdered and raped half the world if he had been allowed to live?  At the very least, Mirri Maz Duur thought he would... and so did Daenerys.

But two people took part in Rhaego's murder: Mirri Maz Duur and Daenerys Targaryen:

Dany's thoughts never confirm that she knew she was sacrificing her son's life, but her thoughts will never confirm it, because as Mirri rightfully said, Dany was lying to herself and she "won't look back".  Dany will never "look back" because she doesn't believe in guilt or regret.  Dany was willing to sacrifice her own life to save Drogo's, and there is no way she truly believed that a horse would pay for her husband's life.

Note that Dany said "Do it" before Mirri said to bring Drogo's horse.  Dany knew whom she was sacrificing.

 

It seems to me that Dany's thoughts are all over the place at that point, because she's in a state of complete panic. She was prepared to sacrifice herself to save Drogo, something which seems absurd to a modern reader, (why should a wife sacrifice herself for a brutal warlord?) but which would no doubt be expected of a loyal and true wife in this world.

But I don't believe for one moment that Rhaego's death was an accident.  And, while I think she ought to have realised that more than a horse would be required, she was also tricked.

As to whether killing Rhaego was the right thing to do, most of the lords and knights of the Seven Kingdoms are very savage in war.  Would it be right to kill their children, pre-emptively?

Edited by SeanF
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2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Strongly disagree. Killing an innocent baby for what he may do in the future is a very slippery slope.

Khal Drogo, on the other hand, what did Daenerys really expect? That she would help her mass-murdering, slaving, rapist husband who razed Mirri's home and slaughtered all her friends and family? So he could continue his quest to pillage, murder and rape?

I think one has to allow for the ingrained sexism of this world.  A young wife is expected to be entirely supportive of her husband, however brutal he is.  That is true in Westeros, and true among the Dothraki.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

She was prepared to sacrifice herself to save Drogo, something which seems absurd to a modern reader, (why should a wife sacrifice herself for a brutal warlord?)

It didn't necessarily seem absurd to me that a wife would be willing to die for her husband.  That's not a sexist statement, because it doesn't seem absurd to me for a husband to be willing to die for his wife, either.  This is about Dany's love for Drogo as her husband, rather than as a brutal warlord.  I am not a Daenerys Targaryen fan at all, but I have a lot of sympathy for her considering the unideal circumstances how her love for Khal Drogo began, how she was raised, and the fact that she was 13/14 years old during the events of AGOT.

I think she would have been willing to sacrifice her son for Drogo too... and she did.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

And, while I think she ought to have realised that more than a horse would be required, she was also tricked.

Dany was definitely tricked by Mirri, but the trick was Mirri cursing Drogo in the first place with Drogo's "gift of life" not being much of a life at all.  I don't think Dany was tricked about whom she would be sacrificing, or at least Dany tricked herself into thinking it was someone other than Rhaego.  Deep down, she knew.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

As to whether killing Rhaego was the right thing to do, most of the lords and knights of the Seven Kingdoms are very savage in war.  Would it be right to kill their children, pre-emptively?

I know that was a rhetorical question, but my answer is no.  I obviously have the luxury of applying my modern viewpoints to this fictional word, but there are also people in this fictional world (Ned Stark) who agree that these actions are evil.  Tywin is a monster to have killed Rhaenys and Aegon, and Robert's presumed intention to kill Viserys and Dany on Dragonstone was equally monstrous.

But Rhaego's case is complicated by prophecy.  Rhaenys and Aegon were hypothetical future threats, but Rhaego (if the prophecy is believed) was an actual future threat.  That's where our real-life standards of morality don't apply, because these are ethical dilemmas we don't have in real-life.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think one has to allow for the ingrained sexism of this world.  A young wife is expected to be entirely supportive of her husband, however brutal he is.  That is true in Westeros, and true among the Dothraki.

I agree, but that still doesn't explain why Daenerys though Mirri would be happy to help the man who just razed her village and killed her people.

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12 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

The Dothraki horde invaded her city, raped her, destroyed the temples and homes, killed all its people, her friends and neighbours, raped the women and carried off the survivors into slavery.

She made the Khal a vegetable. She also unintentionally killed his dead baby son ***, the "stallion who mounts the word", so he will not burn any nations or kill any more people. Rhaego was prophesized to be a guy who's going to commit mass genocide. She ensured the world would be much safer without him. Plus, she ensured some form of justice for her own people. She avenged them.

***Dany entered the tent to give birth when the maegi told her not to while the blood ritual was going on. Doing that killed Rhaego. Even if Mirri intentionally killed Rhaego, it was totally justified. 

 

By this same logic Stalin is the savior  of men, hero of humankind because Soviet Union was invaded and he fought against Nazis, but guess what, he isn’t. He is one of the bloodiest dictators to have ever lived, he originally was an ally to Hitler and shared Poland with him, he attacked Finland and even before all this, he was murdering people en masse and comitting all kind of atrocities. Mirri is a maegi with knowledge of blood magic, do you think she has never practiced it? She has learned this in Asshai where human lives are worthless. Even slaves in free cities or the Slaver’s Bay are treated better.

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24 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

 

But Rhaego's case is complicated by prophecy.  Rhaenys and Aegon were hypothetical future threats, but Rhaego (if the prophecy is believed) was an actual future threat.  That's where our real-life standards of morality don't apply, because these are ethical dilemmas we don't have in real-life.

The problem with action based upon prophecy is no one can know how much truth there is in it;  whether it can be averted;  and whether it is the whole truth or only part of it.  And what are the consequences of trying to avert it?

The same person might be both brutal conqueror, and saviour of the world.

The previous poster referenced Stalin, albeit in a different context.  If you knew what baby Stalin would do as an adult, would you kill him to save millions, or let him live, in order to defeat Hitler (again, a rhetorical question?)

Edited by SeanF
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25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

By this same logic Stalin is the savior  of men, hero of humankind because Soviet Union was invaded and he fought against Nazis, but guess what, he isn’t. He is one of the bloodiest dictators to have ever lived, he originally was an ally to Hitler and shared Poland with him, he attacked Finland and even before all this, he was murdering people en masse and comitting all kind of atrocities. Mirri is a maegi with knowledge of blood magic, do you think she has never practiced it? She has learned this in Asshai where human lives are worthless. Even slaves in free cities or the Slaver’s Bay are treated better.

Godwin’s Law

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It seems to me that Dany's thoughts are all over the place at that point, because she's in a state of complete panic. She was prepared to sacrifice herself to save Drogo, something which seems absurd to a modern reader, (why should a wife sacrifice herself for a brutal warlord?) but which would no doubt be expected of a loyal and true wife in this world.

But I don't believe for one moment that Rhaego's death was an accident.  And, while I think she ought to have realised that more than a horse would be required, she was also tricked.

As to whether killing Rhaego was the right thing to do, most of the lords and knights of the Seven Kingdoms are very savage in war.  Would it be right to kill their children, pre-emptively?

 

I definitely agree that Dany's thoughts were jumbled and panicked; and I think that saving Drogo was uppermost in her mind.  But I don't think that it occurred to Dany that her precious unborn son was being considered as an acceptable swap for Drogo's life in Mirri's ritual.  I think if Daenerys had fully understood that Rhaego's life was about to be taken, she would have called for Jorah, the dragon eggs, a midwife, and sadly left Drogo to his fate; and then hopefully, if the baby was born alive and healthy, managed to escape with the kid and Jorah.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The problem with action based upon prophecy is no one can know how much truth there is in it;  whether it can be averted;  and whether it is the whole truth or only part of it.  And what are the consequences of trying to avert it?

I agree.  This is less about what I think than a philosophical pondering of what MIrri Maz Duur was thinking.  She seemed to believe the prophecy.  I think the majority of the prophecies in the story are true but misinterpreted, and the blind faith in prophecy will lead those people to disaster (not to mention leading various readers to disappointment), but that's a whole different tangent.

To the original point of the thread, I don't find MIrri a hero... but I have no resentment toward her for killing Drogo.  And if I resent her for killing Rhaego, Daenerys gets equal blame for that because she chose to sacrifice him.

The consequences for Mirri for trying to avert the prophecy was being burned on Drogo's pyre.  She knew her actions would result in her own death.

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The previous poster referenced Stalin, albeit in a different context.  If you knew what baby Stalin would do as an adult, would you kill him to save millions, or let him live, in order to defeat Hitler.

Well, again this is less about what I would do, and more about understanding the actions of Mirri.  But I don't think this is a great comparison to Mirri's situation.  Rhaego was prophesized to trample civilizations into dust, but there were no counter predictions saying that he would also bring down other genocidal regimes.  So Mirri's choice about Rhaego should have been easier than the hypothetical question about Stalin who was one of the world's worst monsters but also helped bring down another monster.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree, but that still doesn't explain why Daenerys though Mirri would be happy to help the man who just razed her village and killed her people.

In panic, I’ve done stupid things which I would never have done, had I sat down and thought them through.  Dany did the same here.  Were she calm and rational, she’d realise that she was being gulled.

 

Edited by SeanF
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10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

By this same logic Stalin is the savior  of men, hero of humankind because Soviet Union was invaded and he fought against Nazis, but guess what, he isn’t. He is one of the bloodiest dictators to have ever lived, he originally was an ally to Hitler and shared Poland with him, he attacked Finland and even before all this, he was murdering people en masse and comitting all kind of atrocities. Mirri is a maegi with knowledge of blood magic, do you think she has never practiced it? She has learned this in Asshai where human lives are worthless. Even slaves in free cities or the Slaver’s Bay are treated better.

Lol Mirri Maaz Duur being Stalin or Hitler is not a good comparison.

She definitely would have practiced blood magic before but she is still a hero to the lhazarene

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3 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Lol Mirri Maaz Duur being Stalin or Hitler is not a good comparison.

She definitely would have practiced blood magic before but she is still a hero to the lhazarene

Sheep hero is shit hero: blood magic is unacceptable, sorry. Also she is more comparable to a lone wolf attacker than dictator scum with power.

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