The Forbidden Topic

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I think that Jon and Dany's ADWD arcs both get at this theme. How well he pulls it off will depend the later books though. Both J & D are currently at the point where they are about to say "to hell with this responsible rule crap" and go all Storybook Hero. 

Well, maybe Ghost is about to say it. Jon's not saying much at the moment.

Dany has already committed numerous atrocities, she’s her father’s daughter and likely Cersei’s sister to boot.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dany has already committed numerous atrocities, she’s her father’s daughter and likely Cersei’s sister to boot.

What did she do other than torture the Wineseller's daughters? I know there was a big debate on her 'kill any boy under twelve who wears a tokar' and crucifying the masters without checking who was involved in crucifying the children.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dany has already committed numerous atrocities, she’s her father’s daughter and likely Cersei’s sister to boot.

She has indeed committed atrocities, and is a darker character than some fans want to acknowledge, but come on. She's not gonna go all Mad Queen in the same way that Aerys did. That's Cersei's fate, and Dany is very different than Cersei.

Dany will ride the knife's edge between heroism and villainy, but there's more than enough evidence to suggest that she will avoid going full villain. Although her acting heroically yet being reviled as a villain could definitely happen.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What did she do other than torture the Wineseller's daughters? I know there was a big debate on her 'kill any boy under twelve who wears a tokar' and crucifying the masters without checking who was involved in crucifying the children.

In the second Slaver city she makes the slaves freed from the city loot it. Her dragons eat children in Meereen.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Dany will ride the knife's edge between heroism and villainy, but there's more than enough evidence to suggest that she will avoid going full villain. Although her acting heroically yet being reviled as a villain could definitely happen.

She’s a dragonlord of Valyria through and through. She terrorizes people and opresses the masses with her dragons. She’s a few steps away from being Maegor with tits, which by the way she also uses as instruments in her misrule, a trait she shares with Cersei.

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

In the second Slaver city she makes the slaves freed from the city loot it. Her dragons eat children in Meereen.

Commanding the slaves to carry away moveable goods as compensation for slavery is entirely reasonable.

One child allegedly died at Drogon’s hands, not “children.”  She offered compensation, when her advisors wished to rip the father’s tongue out.

Daenerys does the things that leaders do, in this world.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

29 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She’s a dragonlord of Valyria through and through. She terrorizes people and opresses the masses with her dragons. She’s a few steps away from being Maegor with tits, which by the way she also uses as instruments in her misrule, a trait she shares with Cersei.

But you're forgetting or dismissing all of Dany's positive characteristics. Her empathy and ability to adapt. Her compassion for the downtrodden. Her desire to deliver justice, her capacity to forgive, and her perceived responsibility to stay and plant trees.

Not to mention, there is the part of her that fears her dragonlord nature, and that fears the madness that consumed her father and brother. I'm not saying she won't succumb to those urges for fire and blood--she's clearly on that path as ADWD ends. But those other character traits and arcs were put there for a reason, not least to distinguish her from Viserys, Aerys, and Cersei.

If anything, she's most like Stannis, as someone who rides the line between heroism and villainy. I am of the opinion that Stannis will prove a tragically failed hero, while Dany will prove to be a more consequential hero, though it may be that they are both remembered as villains.

[Corvo the Crow]

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Commanding the slaves to carry away moveable goods as compensation for slavery is entirely reasonable.

Looting. She should’ve calculated fair wages for each slave, and then deducted accomodations, food, taxes etc. 

 

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

One child allegedly died at Drogon’s hands, not “children.”  She offered compensation, when her advisors wished to rip the father’s tongue out.

Daenerys does the things that leaders do, in this world.

One father was brave enough, even  after the atrocities she committed, one father survived while his child died. Who knows how many fathers couldn’t come for fear, who knows how many couldn’t come because they were killed themselves.

 

[Craving Peaches]

46 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

In the second Slaver city she makes the slaves freed from the city loot it.

Looting a city is not nice but it's pretty standard practice. Robb loots the Westerlands. I don't see how this one act makes Daenerys any worse than all the other characters who have done it.

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Her dragons eat children in Meereen.

Drogon, one dragon, may or may not have eaten Hazzea, one child, after which Daenerys locks her remaining dragons up so they can't hurt anyone else.

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Looting. She should’ve calculated fair wages for each slave, and then deducted accomodations, food, taxes etc. 

 

One father was brave enough, even  after the atrocities she committed, one father survived while his child died. Who knows how many fathers couldn’t come for fear, who knows how many couldn’t come because they were killed themselves.

 

One sixth of the population keep five sixths in servitude.  Worse, they murder, rape, and torture them for their own profit and amusement.

Being killed and robbed by their slaves was something these people brought on their own heads.

Dany dealt leniently with the slavers and their supporters, compared to leaders of slave revolts in real life, like Spartacus or Dessalines.  

The former masters are not backward in coming forward with complaints to her, following her conquest of Meereen.  If Drogon was killing lots of children, the text would say so.

[Corvo the Crow]

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Looting a city is not nice but it's pretty standard practice. Robb loots the Westerlands. I don't see how this one act makes Daenerys any worse than all the other characters who have done it.

Other characters don’t claim moral superiority, for them it is war as usual.

 

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Drogon, one dragon, may or may not have eaten Hazzea, one child, 

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

One that we know, who knows how many more were eaten but the father was afraid or maybe had their tongues cut off before they could reach an audiance so they can’t spread tales. Worst of all, who is to say entire families weren’t eaten? If the Dragon eats an entire family no one can come and tell.

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

after which Daenerys locks her remaining dragons up so they can't hurt anyone else.

Quite convenient if you ask me. She lets the already human eating one free but locks the others. Why? To turn them into even more violent beasts of war, in the hopes of they’ll become more aggressive towards humans, perhaps even cannibalize eachother. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

If Dany is a villain for what she did in Slavers Bay the. Pretty much every character that’s led an army is just as wicked.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Come on, this is troll logic.

Yup.

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Other characters don’t claim moral superiority, for them it is war as usual.

I don't know, plenty of other characters claim what they are doing is right or just or justified, for example Stannis, Robb and Tywin.

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One that we know, who knows how many more were eaten but the father was afraid or maybe had their tongues cut off before they could reach an audiance so they can’t spread tales. Worst of all, who is to say entire families weren’t eaten? If the Dragon eats an entire family no one can come and tell.

Yes but there is no proof for this at all. I could claim that Greywind secretely savaged multiple people who then had their tongues cut out to stop them spreading tales. No proof for that. None against it either, but it is almost certain it didn't happen.

13 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Quite convenient if you ask me. She lets the already human eating one free but locks the others. Why? To turn them into even more violent beasts of war, in the hopes of they’ll become more aggressive towards humans, perhaps even cannibalize eachother. 

She didn't let Drogon go free, he flew off after she tried to apprehend him.

[Corvo the Crow]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

She didn't let Drogon go free, he flew off after she tried to apprehend him.

Appeared to try and apprehend. Whoops Drogon the savage Dragon let loose.Anyway, let’s confine the not so violent ones so they get aggressive as hell as well. A poor excuse.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Appeared to try and apprehend. Whoops Drogon the savage Dragon let loose.

I doubt Daenerys deliberately let him loose so he could eat more children, if that's what you're implying.

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Anyway, let’s confine the not so violent ones so they get aggressive as hell as well. A poor excuse.

If she didn't confine them you'd be complaining she took no action to prevent further tragedies after Hazzea's death. Daenerys did what she could short of killing the dragons, whom she views as her children.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I doubt Daenerys deliberately let him loose so he could eat more children, if that's what you're implying.

If she didn't confine them you'd be complaining she took no action to prevent further tragedies after Hazzea's death. Daenerys did what she could short of killing the dragons, whom she views as her children.

Locking up the dragons actually emboldened the slavers.  They saw weakness.

[SeanF]

44 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

If Dany is a villain for what she did in Slavers Bay the. Pretty much every character that’s led an army is just as wicked.

Some people go to extraordinary lengths to portray the freeborn elite of Slavers Bay as just ordinary joes who had nothing to do with subjugating the majority.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Locking up the dragons actually emboldened the slavers.  They saw weakness.

That's another issue with it, but she did it for a good reason - to make sure no more innocent children were harmed.

[Alden Rothack]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's another issue with it, but she did it for a good reason - to make sure no more innocent children were harmed.

that went well

the road to hell and all that