Ukraine Forever

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If there stated goals lead to more death and suffering, all you’re doing is supporting death and suffering but without the revenge excuse. 

Ukrainians have their reasons but you don’t. Wanting to make the enemy suffer and using the military goals of the UAF as an excuse is just that and it doesn’t make you righteous, it makes you exploitive and pro-violence.

So… we should have just made peace with Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo?  Our desire to defeat the fascists after large amounts of territory had been seized by these States was just creating more death and suffering… right?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That’s a fine opinion (based on wishful thinking) but since people tend to believe anything less equates to support for Russian atrocities, I tend to be skeptical that you really care about the consequences and are more focused on destroying the enemy rather than achieving peace.

We have seen what the Russians do in territory they occupy.  The desire for negotiations with Russia evaporated in Ukraine after the massacre in Bucha was discovered.  You do see that?

[butterweedstrover]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So… we should have just made peace with Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo?  Our desire to defeat the fascists after large amounts of territory had been seized by these States was just creating more death and suffering… right?

Learn about another war. 
 

Sevastopol has always had Russian military, even after 1991. The displacement of their sole warm water navel base and the prosecution of ‘collaborators’ in Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t acts of liberation, they’re extreme military aims which did not have any serious merit before this war began.

[butterweedstrover]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

We have seen what the Russians do in territory they occupy.  The desire for negotiations with Russia evaporated in Ukraine after the massacre in Bucha was discovered.  You do see that?

The desire for negotiations ended once it became clear their western suppliers would continue support until a total victory. After Bucha Zelensky was still open to talks. 

The military leadership of Ukraine have their own reasons for seizing the rest of Donbas without having to deal with the Minsk agreement. 

I don’t question them, I question people like you who care more about seeing Russia suffer than actually achieving peace. Especially since this isn’t your war, I tend to believe you are exploiting the Ukrainian perspective to instigate more violence under the premise of “justice”.  
 

The funny thing is Zelensky during the election was open to pursing aspects of the Minsk agreement. It was elements of the military that stopped him, and right now he is very limited in what he can and can’t do.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Learn about another war. 
 

Sevastopol has always has Russian military, even after 1991. The displacement of their sole warm water navel base and the prosecution of ‘collaborators’ in Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t acts of liberation, they’re extreme military aims which did not have any serious merit before this war began.

For the second time how helpful has the Black Sea Fleet been in doing anything but lauching terror attacks against Ukrainian Civilians?

My point about fighting to regain territory during the Second World War remains.  You simply refuse to address it.  If it is wrong for Ukraine to fight to regain lost Territory because doing so creates more “death and terror” why wasn’t it wrong during the Second World War?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

@butterweedstrover,

Bucha had no impact on the Ukrainian willingness to negotiate?  Do you acknowledge Bucha is a Russian war crime?

[Zorral]

Also ignoring that it is / was Putin's own declaration that taking Crimea first, now Ukraine second, was just the opening in the restoration of his Catherine the Great fantasy of restoring the Russian Empire, whose supremacy is to run from the Volga Danube rivers, the Baltic, Black, Azov and Caspian seas, eastward, southward and beyond.  Watch out Poland, etc.

B is ignoring all that and that those nations such as Poland, the Czech Republic etc. are not fond of being forced into Russia the Empire either.

As I also said above, in many ways Russia did a war of conquest invasion of Ukraine and forced her to become a 'proxy war' on behalf of the at least nominally democratic nations -- it's the least they and their citizens can do, to cheer Ukraine on with supportive thoughts, and with what actually matters -- the weapons that allow Ukraine to battle to make her own decisions.

That is nothing like revenge porn on Russia.

 

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The desire for negotiations ended once it became clear their western suppliers would continue support until a total victory. After Bucha Zelensky was still open to talks. 

The military leadership of Ukraine have their own reasons for seizing the rest of Donbas without having to deal with the Minsk agreement. 

I don’t question them, I question people like you who care more about seeing Russia suffer than actually achieving peace. Especially since this isn’t your war, I tend to believe you are exploiting the Ukrainian perspective to instigate more violence under the premise of “justice”.  
 

The funny thing is Zelensky during the election was open to pursing aspects of the Minsk agreement. It was elements of the military that stopped him, and right now he is very limited in what he can and can’t do.

That’s a pretty rotten argument.

Helping a country repel aggression is entirely legitimate.

[kiko]

On 12/24/2022 at 2:15 AM, Zorral said:

 

 

Particularly in light of the bit of discussion in the International thread of the militant anti-democracy authoritarianism politics exhibited that's been unchecked in some of the countries such as Sweden, Hungary, Germany, Poland and France

Okay I was off over Christmas, so I might have missed the militant anti-democracy authoritarianism politics in Germany.

Am I lucky that I'm posting from Danmark right now? Can I go back?

[mormont]

43 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If there stated goals lead to more death and suffering, all you’re doing is supporting death and suffering but without the revenge excuse. 

And what's your excuse for supporting more death and suffering?

 

[butterweedstrover]

38 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

@butterweedstrover,

Bucha had no impact on the Ukrainian willingness to negotiate?  Do you acknowledge Bucha is a Russian war crime?

 

39 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

For the second time how helpful has the Black Sea Fleet been in doing anything but lauching terror attacks against Ukrainian Civilians?

My point about fighting to regain territory during the Second World War remains.  You simply refuse to address it.  If it is wrong for Ukraine to fight to regain lost Territory because doing so creates more “death and terror” why wasn’t it wrong during the Second World War?

Look Scott, you’ve been wrong about a lot of stuff so far and have been circulating misinformation. Which is fine, as long as you don’t keep doing it once learning otherwise. 
 

1. You implied Yankovich was responsible for shooting protesters which is patently wrong 

2. you said Bucha was the reason Ukrainians are unwilling to negotiate when they were still open to negotiations after Bucha 

3. You compare the seizure of Sevastopol, Donetsk, and Luhansk to the defeat of Nazi Germany when none of these territories have been under the control of the regime that came to power after the revolution. 
 

Thd comparison is more akin to China wanting Taiwan back despite not having controlled it since the revolution. 

[butterweedstrover]

Just now, mormont said:

And what's your excuse for supporting more death and suffering?

 

See here is the thing Mormont (moderator). I don’t support the war and yet you accuse me of just that. 

If one is opposed to the entirety of the UAF’s military aims that does not make one supportive of Russian atrocities or Russian war aims. But without proof you accuse me of that anyways creating binary situation where one either supports Ukrainian seizure of Sevastopol, Donetsk, and Luhansk are one supports the rape of Ukrainian women. 
 

And as a mod you should hold yourself to a higher standard. Such framing allows people to discuss the total collapse of Russia as a moral goal to stop the war when it’s really just people advocating for more destruction under the guise of ‘justice’.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

Look Scott, you’ve been wrong about a lot of stuff so far and have been circulating misinformation. Which is fine, as long as you don’t keep doing it once learning otherwise. 
 

1. You implied Yankovich was responsible for shooting protesters which is patently wrong 

2. you said Bucha was the reason Ukrainians are unwilling to negotiate when they were still open to negotiations after Bucha 

3. You compare the seizure of Sevastopol, Donetsk, and Luhansk to the defeat of Nazi Germany when one of these territories have been under the control of the regime that came to power after the revolution. 
 

Thd comparison is more akin to China wanting Taiwan back despite not having controlled it since the revolution. 

And you have yet to directly answer my questions.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

If one is opposed to the entirety of the UAF’s military aims that does not make one supportive of Russian atrocities or Russian war aims. But without proof you accuse me of that anyways creating binary situation where one either supports Ukrainian seizure of Sevastopol, Donetsk, and Luhansk are one supports the rape of Ukrainian women. 

You don’t support allowing the Russians to keep control of the territory it has overrun?

[Jace, Extat]

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

Look Scott, you’ve been wrong about a lot of stuff so far and have been circulating misinformation. Which is fine, as long as you don’t keep doing it once learning otherwise. 
 

1. You implied Yankovich was responsible for shooting protesters which is patently wrong 

2. you said Bucha was the reason Ukrainians are unwilling to negotiate when they were still open to negotiations after Bucha 

3. You compare the seizure of Sevastopol, Donetsk, and Luhansk to the defeat of Nazi Germany when one of these territories have been under the control of the regime that came to power after the revolution. 
 

Thd comparison is more akin to China wanting Taiwan back despite not having controlled it since the revolution. 

 

Yo that's a ridiculous comparison. Russia AGREED that Ukraine got to be a sovereign state, after much horror at the hands of the U.S.S.R. That means they get to make friends and do shit you don't like- that's what sovereign means

Taiwan is the political descendant of Chiang Kai-shek, a man of such opposition to the Chinese Communists that fucking Taiwan exists. 

Read a book

[butterweedstrover]

32 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Also ignoring that it is / was Putin's own declaration that taking Crimea first, now Ukraine second, was just the opening in the restoration of his Catherine the Great fantasy of restoring the Russian Empire, whose supremacy is to run from the Volga Danube rivers, the Baltic, Black, Azov and Caspian seas, eastward, southward and beyond.  Watch out Poland, etc.

B is ignoring all that and that those nations such as Poland, the Czech Republic etc. are not fond of being forced into Russia the Empire either.

As I also said above, in many ways Russia did a war of conquest invasion of Ukraine and forced her to become a 'proxy war' on behalf of the at least nominally democratic nations -- it's the least they and their citizens can do, to cheer Ukraine on with supportive thoughts, and with what actually matters -- the weapons that allow Ukraine to battle to make her own decisions.

That is nothing like revenge porn on Russia.

 

The association of violence in Russia as a sign of peace in Ukraine is what allows people to advocate bad things under a moral guise which is wrong. Using the Ukrainian situation to bring about more death is not right. 
 

For example, the continual existence of the Russian state does not equate to a continual threat against the Ukrainian people. Crimea was always part of Russia’s military apparatus, and Putin did not plan on militarily controlling Ukraine back in 2015 when the Minsk agreement was signed. Otherwise there would have been no Minsk. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Fire and Jace said:

 

Yo that's a ridiculous comparison. Russia AGREED that Ukraine got to be a sovereign state, after much horror at the hands of the U.S.S.R. That means they get to make friends and do shit you don't like- that's what sovereign means

Taiwan is the political descendant of Chiang Kai-shek, a man of such opposition to the Chinese Communists that fucking Taiwan exists. 

Read a book

Taiwan today has never been under the control of the current regime in China just like Crimea and Donetsk today have never been under control of the current regime in Ukraine. They cannot retake territory that was never under their control under a framework of Ukrainian statehood none of these people agreed to and was brought upon them not be voting, but by revolution.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The association of violence in Russia as a sign of peace in Ukraine is what allows people to advocate bad things under a moral guise which is wrong. Using the Ukrainian situation to bring about more death is not right. 
 

For example, the continual existence of the Russian state does not equate to a continual threat against the Ukrainian people. Crimea was always part of Russia’s military apparatus, and Putin did not plan on militarily controlling Ukraine back in 2015 when the Minsk agreement was signed. Otherwise there would have been no Minsk. 

Is it your position that a Nation State fighting to repel an invasion is the moral equivalent of the Nation State that is invading?

[Nabarg]

Current regime of Ukraine? There have not been a total change of regime of the kind that China had. Was the same parliament and administration after the president fled from impeachment after the police refused to fire at the protesters.

And those of us who appreciate living in a democracy (however faulty)have a skin in this game, since it is part of a global contest between democracy and authoritarianism. A military defeat for Russia will be good for the Russian people in the same way as the defeat of Germany in WW2 was good for the German people. It may finally lead to their freedom.

And, by the way, you have still not answered what you think about the occupation of the Baltic states by the Soviet Union (which began when the Soviets were allies of the Nazis).

[Jace, Extat]

Revolution is the only natural language 

Life is water. Vlad is living in the past and you're too emotionally Cool Guy to see that. 

Look, I'm not unresponsive to the idea that if you're beat- it's ok to give up. Surrendering is a thing for a reason. 

But not when you're winning. And not when it's their bombs falling on your houses. Nah, dawg. Take that appeasement and I hope it keeps you warm at night. Life is worth losing, and worth losing early to live free of a man like Putin and his goons 

America, 'the West', totally fucked up. I get it. Every dead Russian and dead Ukrainian is a dollar in the bank for America- that's some seriously SERIOUSLY fucked up shit. 

The ruining of a generation of Ukrainians is probably gonna help keep this fetid corpse of an American economy on life support for another ten years, that is true 

And it's also true that those people have a right to defend themselves and we have the means and interest. To abandon a natural ally you have every means to assist out of some latent non-interventionist morality is intellectual cowardice disguising itself as humanism. 

Maybe Ukraine shouldn't have burned the meatloaf if she didn't want to wear three layers of makeup to church, eh?