Ukraine Forever

[A Horse Named Stranger]

10 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Windows are so dangerous!  This must be why Santa chooses to use chimneys.

 

Use Linux, much safer.

[Tywin et al.]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

They’re turning on each other like rats in a sack.

In Mother Russia, rich dissident wants to be like bird.

Jokes aside, I'm always surprised by just how shameless they are. You'd think the entire country by now would be ready to overthrow this government. Even Xi's China had to check themselves recently over internal developments. 

[Werthead]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

In Mother Russia, rich dissident wants to be like bird.

Jokes aside, I'm always surprised by just how shameless they are. You'd think the entire country by now would be ready to overthrow this government. Even Xi's China had to check themselves recently over internal developments. 

It takes a lot to push Russians to the breaking point. Still, I think they're a lot closer than some people - mostly in the Russian establishment - think, but a lot further away than others are hoping.

[butterweedstrover]

Russia’s collapse will be terrible for everyone yet this thread is just: “lol, can’t wait.” 

One of the reasons I stay away from political threads, dumb people with violent tendencies  seem to win out.

[Derfel Cadarn]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia’s collapse will be terrible for everyone yet this thread is just: “lol, can’t wait.” 

One of the reasons I stay away from political threads, dumb people with violent tendencies  seem to win out.

Yeah, terrible. The Ukrainians will be crying in their beers. 

[butterweedstrover]

10 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Yeah, terrible. The Ukrainians will be crying in their beers. 

It’s cool you can use the suffering of Ukrainians to justify your own revenge porn. 

You remind of those people back in 2014 when Vice went to the city of Donetsk to report on the violence. A guy was complaining that his entire family was killed by a Ukrainian artillery strike and westerners in the comments posted stuff like “serves you right for siding with Russia”. 
 

Those same people are using this war to delve into their sick fantasies, living vicariously through Ukrainians in hopes of a bloody rampage. 
 

If you were someone who lost something from this war I could respect your desire for revenge, but since you’re not I tend to believe you don’t care, you just enjoy the violence.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia’s collapse will be terrible for everyone yet this thread is just: “lol, can’t wait.” 

One of the reasons I stay away from political threads, dumb people with violent tendencies  seem to win out.

So… you’re a big fan of the Russian dictator and think Ukraine didn’t have an obligation to attempt to retake territory occupied by “off duty” Russian troops in 2014… and seperatists who shot down an Indonesian passenger aircraft filled with Dutch tourists?

https://www.voanews.com/a/dutch-court-sentences-3-to-life-in-prison-for-2014-downing-of-mh17/6838657.html

 

[butterweedstrover]

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So… you’re a big fan of the Russian dictator and think Ukraine didn’t have an obligation to attempt to retake territory occupied by “off duty” Russian troops in 2014… and seperatists who shot down an Indonesian passenger aircraft filled with Dutch tourists?

https://www.voanews.com/a/dutch-court-sentences-3-to-life-in-prison-for-2014-downing-of-mh17/6838657.html

 

It’s amazing how these are the only positions you can comprehend. Either you cheer on the bloody slaughter of Russia or you’re a big “fan of the Russian dictator”. 

This is how people like you pretend to be righteous, you take your most violent tendencies and pretend anything less is a full throttled support of the Russian war effort. But Ukrainian lives aren’t what concern you, it’s about wanting to see your enemies suffer. 
 

The western ‘liberals’ are the ones who have turned to denying that “rebels” existed in Donbas in 2014 and made it all out to be a covert Russian invasion. And yet somehow experienced fighters are to blame for mismanaging advanced weaponry. Maybe that tells you something about who was using it. 
 

Oh and don’t pretend you care about what happened in Donbas between 2014-2015. Here is your brave Ukrainian president talking about it: 

But whatever, those people deserved it. Because they stood in the way of liberal reforms or something.  
 

Edited December 27, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[Werthead]

There is no reason for Russia to collapse, or for more one more young Russian conscript who probably doesn't want to be there to die. To avoid that, Russia simply needs to withdraw from territory it has zero legal, moral or ethical business in being in, and negotiate in good faith on those issues where it could possibly have some kind of valid claim (like the apparently majority-Russian-supporting status of Crimea).

If Russia does collapse, it would be one of the most dangerous moments since 1962 (even moreso than 1991, where at least the "downgrade" from the USSR to the Russian Federation was handled about as well as could be expected, and much better than feared), with considerable risks of local wars, civil wars, nukes going missing and possibly even famine. Russia maintaining its integrity would be preferable for all parties.

The only person with "violent tendencies" trying to "win out" in all of this is Vladimir Putin.

[Derfel Cadarn]

56 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia’s collapse will be terrible for everyone yet this thread is just: “lol, can’t wait.” 

One of the reasons I stay away from political threads, dumb people with violent tendencies  seem to win out.

For someone who stays away from political threads, you seem to be … not staying away.

If Russia wants to stop the bloodshed and focus on getting their shit together, all they need do is pull their troops out of Ukraine. Simples! 
Maybe not raping and killing the shit out of people would help too.

[Zorral]

It would also have helped if Putin hadn't declared a war of invasion-and-conquest of Ukraine, which somehow, oddly, inexplicably, didn't want to be invaded, conquered, pillaged and declared 'russia'. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

47 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It’s cool you can use the suffering of Ukrainians to justify your own revenge porn. 

You remind of those people back in 2014 when Vice went to the city of Donetsk to report on the violence. A guy was complaining that his entire family was killed by a Ukrainian artillery strike and westerners in the comments posted stuff like “serves you right for siding with Russia”. 
 

Those same people are using this war to delve into their sick fantasies, living vicariously through Ukrainians in hopes of a bloody rampage. 
 

If you were someone who lost something from this war I could respect your desire for revenge, but since you’re not I tend to believe you don’t care, you just enjoy the violence.

I’m not enjoying anything or expressing any desire for revenge. My post points out that Ukraine will not be upset if Russia collapses.

I hope that if there is change, it is not chaos so that the ordinary Russians can get some decent leadership. For once.

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There is no reason for Russia to collapse, or for more one more young Russian conscript who probably doesn't want to be there to die. To avoid that, Russia simply needs to withdraw from territory it has zero legal, moral or ethical business in being in, and negotiate in good faith on those issues where it could possibly have some kind of valid claim (like the apparently majority-Russian-supporting status of Crimea).

If Russia does collapse, it would be one of the most dangerous moments since 1962 (even moreso than 1991, where at least the "downgrade" from the USSR to the Russian Federation was handled about as well as could be expected, and much better than feared), with considerable risks of local wars, civil wars, nukes going missing and possibly even famine. Russia maintaining its integrity would be preferable for all parties.

The only person with "violent tendencies" trying to "win out" in all of this is Vladimir Putin.

4 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

For someone who stays away from political threads, you seem to be … not staying away.

If Russia wants to stop the bloodshed and focus on getting their shit together, all they need do is pull their troops out of Ukraine. Simples! 
Maybe not raping and killing the shit out of people would help too.

If you believe Putin is the violent one you shouldn’t join his ranks and cheer for criminals shooting up Russian cities and slaughtering innocents with a glib tone. 

If your argument relies on claiming moral superiority to Putin, that hardly absolves you from fantasizing about violence. 

Anyways you know the Russian state won’t willingly abandon Sevastopol and on the ethical side you know people in Donetsk and Luhansk (the cities) will be executed for “collaborating” with Russia (which is the same think that happened in Mariupol once the DPR retreated) so that is just a fancy way of saying you want the war to go on. Which is your prerogative, but celebrating the death of Russia isn’t standing up for Ukrainians, it using them to justify the cruelest possible outcome.

[Derfel Cadarn]

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

It would also have helped if Putin hadn't declared a war of invasion-and-conquest of Ukraine, which somehow, oddly, inexplicably, didn't want to be invaded, conquered, pillaged and declared 'russia'. 

Not war. Special military operation, to save Ukrainian people.

By, err, killing and raping them, and depriving them of power and water in the middle of winter.

[Derfel Cadarn]

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If you believe Putin is the violent one you shouldn’t join his ranks and cheer for criminals shooting up Russian cities and slaughtering innocents with a glib tone. 

If your argument relies on claiming moral superiority to Putin, that hardly absolves you from fantasizing about violence. 

Anyways you know the Russian state won’t willingly abandon Sevastopol and on the ethical side you know people in Donetsk and Luhansk (the cities) will be executed for “collaborating” with Russia (which is the same think that happened in Mariupol once the DPR retreated) so that is just a fancy way of saying you want the war to go on. Which is your prerogative, but celebrating the death of Russia isn’t standing up for Ukrainians, it using them to justify the cruelest possible outcome.

You’re justifying proven Russian atrocities - and saying they should continue - by telling us what Ukraine might do. 
It’s Russia who is sending its own forcibly conscripted people into meat grinders. Also it’s Putin’s opponents who seem to have a bad habit of falling out of windows.

Anyway, if you believe Russia is the good guy, I’ve a bridge to sell you.

Maybe not the one connecting Crimea and Russia. I hear it’s still fucked.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Derfel Cadarn

[Werthead]

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If you believe Putin is the violent one you shouldn’t join his ranks and cheer for criminals shooting up Russian cities and slaughtering innocents with a glib tone. 

If your argument relies on claiming moral superiority to Putin, that hardly absolves you from fantasizing about violence. 

Anyways you know the Russian state won’t willingly abandon Sevastopol and on the ethical side you know people in Donetsk and Luhansk (the cities) will be executed for “collaborating” with Russia (which is the same think that happened in Mariupol once the DPR retreated) so that is just a fancy way of saying you want the war to go on. Which is your prerogative, but celebrating the death of Russia isn’t standing up for Ukrainians, it using them to justify the cruelest possible outcome.

"Believing" Putin to be the violent one? Yes, when he sends hundreds to thousands of troops into a sovereign country, lays waste to entire cities and kills maybe a hundred thousand people, whilst getting a similar number of his own people killed, yes, I think it's less a case of "belief" then "inarguable factual reality."

Certainly you can argue that the Ukrainians have not been 100% lily white about the conflict since 2014, and at various moments they have done things that killed civilians (just like we did in WWII, and almost every other war in history) that could have been avoided. But the imbalance between Ukraine and Russia in who is to blame for the conflict, who caused more death and destruction and who is now refusing to end it when they could at any moment is preposterously lop-sided in Russia's favour.

Putin is the person who has unleashed this chaos and killed a lot of Russians and a lot of Ukrainians. He is the only person who can stop this now, immediately, with no more need for bloodshed. He is choosing not to do that. I suggest you address your comments about "fantasizing about violence" to the person who is actualising his fantasies about violence.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

45 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It’s amazing how these are the only positions you can comprehend. Either you cheer on the bloody slaughter of Russia or you’re a big “fan of the Russian dictator”. 

This is how people like you pretend to be righteous, you take your most violent tendencies and pretend anything less is a full throttled support of the Russian war effort. But Ukrainian lives aren’t what concern you, it’s about wanting to see your enemies suffer. 
 

The western ‘liberals’ are the ones who have turned to denying that “rebels” existed in Donbas in 2014 and made it all out to be a covert Russian invasion. And yet somehow experienced fighters are to blame for mismanaging advanced weaponry. Maybe that tells you something about who was using it. 
 

Oh and don’t pretend you care about what happened in Donbas between 2014-2015. Here is your brave Ukrainian president talking about it: 

But whatever, those people deserved it. Because they stood in the way of liberal reforms or something.  
 

Are you a Tankie… or a QNut?

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Your justifying proven Russian atrocities - and saying they should continue - by telling us what Ukraine might do. 
It’s Russia who is sending its own forcibly conscripted people into meat grinders. Also it’s Putin’s opponents who seem to have a bad habit of falling out of windows.

Anyway, if you believe Russia is the good guy, I’ve a bridge to sell you.

Maybe not the one connecting Crimea and Russia. I hear it’s still fucked.

Here is the thing, I don’t “justify” Russian atrocities nor do I deny they exist nor do I support the war. 

But then again that is how you have to think in order to justify revenge. You can’t comprehend someone who takes issue with glib mockery of Russian deaths also doesn’t support their war effort.  

Or how not thinking militarily forcing them out of Crimea and Donbas (pre-February) is the best solution equates to supporting the rape of innocent Ukrainian women.

[Maithanet]

For someone who doesn't support Russia's war, you sure do echo a lot of Russian propaganda. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

If you believe Putin is the violent one you shouldn’t join his ranks and cheer for criminals shooting up Russian cities and slaughtering innocents with a glib tone. 

If your argument relies on claiming moral superiority to Putin, that hardly absolves you from fantasizing about violence. 

Anyways you know the Russian state won’t willingly abandon Sevastopol and on the ethical side you know people in Donetsk and Luhansk (the cities) will be executed for “collaborating” with Russia (which is the same think that happened in Mariupol once the DPR retreated) so that is just a fancy way of saying you want the war to go on. Which is your prerogative, but celebrating the death of Russia isn’t standing up for Ukrainians, it using them to justify the cruelest possible outcome.

Did you actually read what @Werthead said?  He explicitly  stated that a full collapse of the Russian State would be a bad thing, a dangerous thing, for everyone.  Further, care to explain why Russia… can’t simply withdraw its forces from Ukraine and end the war?  How helpful has the Black Sea fleet actually been to the Russian war effort for anything beyond mere terror attacks on Ukrainian cities?

Edited December 27, 2022 by Ser Scot A Ellison