Corvo the Crow Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: But she had the legal authority to burn down the Tower of the Hand, did she not? She burned the fleet as well and plotted to burn the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 30, 2022 Author Share Posted November 30, 2022 21 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: She burned the fleet as well and plotted to burn the city. When did she do those things? I thought she just wanted to build a new city, not burn the old one (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: When did she do those things? I thought she just wanted to build a new city, not burn the old one (yet). First is during the battle with wildfire. Second is she wanted a white marble palace across the Blackwater and to burn the city becaue it smelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 30, 2022 Author Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: First is during the battle with wildfire. That's part of the war effort so I wouldn't call it arson. As Queen Regent she had the authority to defend the city using wildfire to burn the invading fleet. 3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Second is she wanted a white marble palace across the Blackwater and to burn the city becaue it smelled. But has she taken any steps towards doing this? Just thinking about burning the city down isn't a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 17 hours ago, boltons are sick said: What's the point of this thread? I could for example start another thread called "The crimes of Tyrion Lannister" and the list would include "rape, pedophilia, abuse, mass murder, arson, mass destruction, war instigation, torture (because he allowed Joffrey to do it to the Antler's men), treason, political murder, accessory to cannibalism, patricide, uxoricide, threats of violence, etc." and I could make a list of crimes that would make Tyrion look even worse than Cersei. Do you realize now how pointless this whole topic is? No matter what list of crimes you come up with, it doesn't change the fact that Cersei is very, very far from being the worst person in ASOIAF and she actually has justifiable motives behind her actions unlike a lot of other characters you could do this topic about and her overall kill count isn't particularly high either considering that she is literally a monarch who rules over millions of subjects. Her crimes could be summed up with "murders and tortures a few people around her" which when you consider the fact she rules over millions of subjects is not impressive at all. Nah. The problem with utilitarian arguments is that they overlook the horrific atrocities committed to individuals. Cersei may not have killed millions through her actions (highly debatable), but that doesn't matter to the individual people who suffered and died because of her. Ned, Sansa, Teanelle, the Blue Bard, Margaery, the puppeteer women, the two bastard children of Robert's Cersei had sold into slavery... Cersei is an awful, immensely evil person. There are a lot of those in Westeros. It's not a contest. Talking about that is never pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted December 1, 2022 Author Share Posted December 1, 2022 18 hours ago, boltons are sick said: What's the point of this thread? I could for example start another thread called "The crimes of Tyrion Lannister" and the list would include "rape, pedophilia, abuse, mass murder, arson, mass destruction, war instigation, torture (because he allowed Joffrey to do it to the Antler's men), treason, political murder, accessory to cannibalism, patricide, uxoricide, threats of violence, etc." and I could make a list of crimes that would make Tyrion look even worse than Cersei. Do you realize now how pointless this whole topic is? No matter what list of crimes you come up with, it doesn't change the fact that Cersei is very, very far from being the worst person in ASOIAF and she actually has justifiable motives behind her actions unlike a lot of other characters you could do this topic about and her overall kill count isn't particularly high either considering that she is literally a monarch who rules over millions of subjects. Her crimes could be summed up with "murders and tortures a few people around her" which when you consider the fact she rules over millions of subjects is not impressive at all. Don't worry, I can do one for Tyrion too. And I started it because I wanted to see exactly how many different crimes Cersei has committed. I don't quite know why you've brought Tyrion up because I didn't even mention him. The purpose of the topic isn't to make Tyrion look better than Cersei. It's not about making Cersei look worse than she is. It was an exercise in identifying the different types of crimes. And I don't agree with the argument that Cersei's motives are justifiable. All of the things used to 'justify' what she does stem from problems she created herself. People say things like 'she had to kill x to defend her children'. Well then maybe she shouldn't have had an incestuous relationship with her brother in the first place. Take the torture and killing of Falyse. If Cersei hadn't tried to have Bronn killed for some flimsy reason and then failed in that plan, she wouldn't have needed to kill her in the first place. It's like if I conspire to murder someone and then kill one of my co-conspirators when they threaten to go to the police. How am I justified given the illegality of my actions in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 Does threatening to kill Sansa during the Battle of the Black Water count? Still not sure if that one was a bluff or not, either way it was pretty messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted December 1, 2022 Author Share Posted December 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, sifth said: Does threatening to kill Sansa during the Battle of the Black Water count? Still not sure if that one was a bluff or not, either way it was pretty messed up. It was not nice, but I am not sure if it could be considered a crime in universe, because Sansa was a prisoner/hostage in a time of war, and Westeros lacks anything like a Geneva Convention. I'm trying to only include things that would technically be illegal in Westeros as well. So Cersei killing Melara, which she had no legal authority to do, was murder, but things like putting a bounty on Tyrion wouldn't count as attempted murder, because she was acting within her power as Regent. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: It was not nice, but I am not sure if it could be considered a crime in universe, because Sansa was a prisoner/hostage in a time of war, and Westeros lacks anything like a Geneva Convention. I'm trying to only include things that would technically be illegal in Westeros as well. So Cersei killing Melara, which she had no legal authority to do, was murder, but things like putting a bounty on Tyrion wouldn't count as attempted murder, because she was acting within her power as Regent. I think. So over looking all of the innocent dwarfs her bounty on Tyrion has caused, doesn't count as a crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 Also planning to kill Trystane Martell, and to frame Tyrion for it. It didn't happen due to Varys and to Doran sending Nymeria Sand with a strong escort instead but it certainely counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said: Also planning to kill Trystane Martell, and to frame Tyrion for it. It didn't happen due to Varys and to Doran sending Nymeria Sand with a strong escort instead but it certainely counts. I'm still 50/50 on whether or not that one is real. It feels sloppy, even for Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted December 1, 2022 Author Share Posted December 1, 2022 22 minutes ago, sifth said: So over looking all of the innocent dwarfs her bounty on Tyrion has caused, doesn't count as a crime? It would be the people who killed the innocent dwarves who would be considered murderers in universe, I think. I'm just hesitant as to whether it is a 'crime' as such for Cersei given at that point she was the Queen Regent. Obviously in the real world it probably would be a crime, inciting others to abduct/murder Tyrion. But Tyrion was a convicted criminal at that point in the story. 5 minutes ago, sifth said: I'm still 50/50 on whether or not that one is real. It feels sloppy, even for Cersei. What's even more stupid is the Sand Snakes hypocrisy in that situation. They are all surprised that Cersei would be willing to kill an innocent child who had done no harm to her - and then are instantly plotting to kill Tommen, an innocent child who had done no harm to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted December 1, 2022 Author Share Posted December 1, 2022 5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said: the two bastard children of Robert's Cersei had sold into slavery... She killed them and sold the mother into slavery, if I recall correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: She killed them and sold the mother into slavery, if I recall correctly. Well heck. It's even worse than I thought, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 5 hours ago, sifth said: I'm still 50/50 on whether or not that one is real. It feels sloppy, even for Cersei. Cersei has done very stupid and crazy actions so I wouldn't be surprised at all if she did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 58 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said: Cersei has done very stupid and crazy actions so I wouldn't be surprised at all if she did. Which is why I said I'm 50/50 on that one being true. Some think, it's a trick by Varys, to help convince Doran to join with Faegon; which is perfectly logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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