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The Rise and Fall of Kanye West


Mr. Chatywin et al.
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3 hours ago, Raja said:

You can stand by your statement all you like, but it's incorrect and shows that you either do not have an understanding of mental illness or you just haven't seen that many people with significant illnesses that make it impossible for them to have insight into what they are doing.

When you say things like this

It's honestly complete nonsense. There are lots of examples of patients who suffer significant illnesses where they have no insight or capacity into the decisions they are making, there's a reason medical professionals like me & the police have the ability to section people when we deem that that is exactly what is happening.

*Not talking about Kanye here

Feel free to replace "mental illness" in my post with "Kanye West's mental illness" if it will make you happier. None of the things you describe have anything to do with the subject matter of this thread that I was discussing, which is Kanye West.

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3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

I gave up when he started comparing people afflicted with incurable, debilitating illnesses, to morons who choose to drink and drive. 

 

You were the one who compared "manic" stage of BPD with being really high:

Quote

Right now, Kanye West feels like King of the World. He will be physically buzzing and rushing like he's on the best class A drugs he's ever had. He does not believe he is ill.

My understanding of his particular situation is, he had psychiatric help, he had medication, and he chose to quit both because he didn't like that. And that was a choice that he made while medicated. Now he's living with the consequences of that choice.

Denying that he has responsibility for his choices demeans the choice of all those other people with BPD, who make the choice every day to continue medications (with all their side effects) and to get help.

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3 hours ago, IFR said:

As far as I know, Trump, who is running again, invited him for dinner then later denounced him. And then Alex Jones, who just lost a lawsuit for his Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, interviewed him. Has the party actually embraced Kanye beyond that? I will occasionally browse the conservative subreddit and almost everyone there expresses scorn for Kanye.

 

 

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57 minutes ago, JGP said:

 

Bipolar people clearly aren't all the same.

As someone who taught Abnormal Psychology for 35 years, this is something that the general public needs to be much more aware of.  There is a tendency for people to attribute anything bad or odd that someone who has been diagnosed with a major mental illnees does to their psychiatric diagnosis. That shouldn't be the case -- people who are bipolar, or have schizophrenia, or any other diagnosable mental disorder still have their own unique personalities and beliefs, and the majority of what they say and do has nothing to do with their illness.  Whatever his mental and emotional problems are, they did not by themselves make Kanye West an anti-Semitic Hitler promoter. 

I know that Lawrence O'Donnell was saying on MSNBC last night that the only information we have on Kanye West's mental disorders or medication is from things he himself has said, with it never being verified by a third party.  That does NOT mean he hasn't had diagnosed mental problems, because privacy laws would prevent any professional who has diagnosed him from answering questions about that without the express written permission of Mr. West.  But given the general level of truth found in his public statements, it certainly is possible that some of what he's said about his mental illness and medications are not correct. 

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9 minutes ago, Ormond said:

I know that Lawrence O'Donnell was saying on MSNBC last night that the only information we have on Kanye West's mental disorders or medication is from things he himself has said

FWIW, I don't think this is true. His ex-wife, Kim Kardashian, made a number of references to his promising to start using his bipolar medication again, or to his having stopped and refusing to use them, at various points. Now, to be sure, it's Kim Kardashian, not the world's most honest person. But still, she at least gave the impression that she was aware of his using or not using medication that was allegedly to treat bipolar disorder.

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1 hour ago, Gorn said:

 

 

They tweeted about the celebrity Trump had dinner with, and then when said celebrity expressed his open love for Hitler they retracted the tweet?

I guess I'm missing the part where this has significance beyond the standard rage click controversies that are continuously occurring in the news cycle. Two months from now, what kind of impact do you think this will have?

Edited by IFR
Grammar
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1 hour ago, Gorn said:

Feel free to replace "mental illness" in my post with "Kanye West's mental illness"

So you're not standing by your statement then.

Good.

As an aside, personally find it difficult to pontificate on a person's actions and the relationship of those actions and said person's mental health, especially when I don't know the person.

Edited by Raja
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I'd say this:

I don't know, and I don't think anyone else on this thread really knows for sure, exactly why Ye is saying the things he's been saying. But he is saying them and they are doing real harm. Those are the things we know for sure.

I've had to deal with some difficult situations, personally and professionally, in recent years where individuals who had a mental illness were causing real harm to others (including others who were themselves mentally ill). It was not always clear whether and to what extent they were able to control their behaviour. But the other people involved were being hurt regardless, and where that happens, you have to act. You can sort out the rest later.

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2 hours ago, JGP said:

I can't watch Lawrence O'Donnell anymore. Which is hilarious, because I only recently discovered he wrote and produced some West Wing. 

He also played Jed's father in "Two Cathedrals."  Who was an abusive smug asshole, so not surprising O'Donnell nailed the part.

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1 hour ago, JGP said:

Normalizing antisemitism. Praising Hitler.

Where could it go? 

 

[spreads hands] 

 

One of those unanswerable questions of the ages.

 

 

 

ps: [Yes, I still love you, @Fire and Jace

 

I should've split it or directed the first part at IFR, but don't be sad about this one, Scot. You should be angry.

 

The Jace part had to be reiterated. Seeing her and DMC go at each other makes my chest hurt a bit. 

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3 minutes ago, JGP said:

I should've split it or directed the first part at IFR, but don't be sad about this one, Scot. You should be angry.

So your prediction is that this is going to cause a rise in antisemitism?

I've so far seen quite the opposite reaction. This seems be one of those rare cases where liberals and conservatives are in agreement that Kanye's message is unacceptable. There's considerable backlash going on, and more a focus on how Kanye has gone crazy.

But fortunately we'll be able to have a retrospective to test your prediction. Two months from now will there be heightened antisemitism? We'll see.

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10 minutes ago, IFR said:

So your prediction is that this is going to cause a rise in antisemitism?

Cause a rise? Nah. I certainly don't think it's going to help already rising antisemitism however.

 

12 minutes ago, IFR said:

I've so far seen quite the opposite reaction. This seems be one of those rare cases where liberals and conservatives are in agreement that Kanye's message is unacceptable. There's considerable backlash going on, and more a focus on how Kanye has gone crazy.

  Mmn... I suspect racists are probably secretly thrilled to have Ye as a distracting foil currently. 

 

12 minutes ago, IFR said:

But fortunately we'll be able to have a retrospective to test your prediction. Two months from now will there be heightened antisemitism? We'll see.

[chuckles politely]

Ok, man.

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1 hour ago, JGP said:

Cause a rise? Nah. I certainly don't think it's going to help already rising antisemitism however.

 

  Mmn... I suspect racists are probably secretly thrilled to have Ye as a distracting foil currently. 

 

[chuckles politely]

Ok, man.

Right, so the argument to back up your original sarcastic sniping at my comment is an unsubstantiated speculation that racists are secretly rejoicing right now? And disregarding the backlash Kanye is being subject to from everyone (even Alex Jones) you idly muse that this may impact the state of antisemitism (to paraphrase your words "it's not going to help").

You're welcome to be patronizing, I suppose, but I would hope that you have something to justify your confidence. What is it Macbeth said about sound and fury?

I still fail to see how there is any benefit to making a media circus out of Kanye's situation. I've learned to orient myself to be amused rather than annoyed by constantly enraged media, but I still don't find much positive to it.

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8 minutes ago, IFR said:

I still fail to see how there is any benefit to making a media circus out of Kanye's situation. I've learned to orient myself to be amused rather than annoyed by constantly enraged media, but I still don't find much positive to it.

While I totally agree we should just stop paying attention to him - see my first post in this thread - I suspect JGP's reaction stems from your apparent assertions that Kanye propagating antisemitism and Hitler apologia is a good thing because of the backlash it's received.  I strongly suspect the ADL would disagree with this assessment.

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