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The Rise and Fall of Kanye West


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11 minutes ago, DMC said:

While I totally agree we should just stop paying attention to him - see my first post in this thread - I suspect JGP's reaction stems from your apparent assertions that Kanye propagating antisemitism and Hitler apologia is a good thing because of the backlash it's received.  I strongly suspect the ADL would disagree with this assessment.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm explicitly saying the media attention is a bad thing, a cynical exploitation of mental illness that the media is embracing for the rage clicks (true to form). I'm further saying that we have no idea at all what social impact such statements will have - there's no merit to assuming it's going to normalize anything. So using that as a justification for the media to continue focusing attention on Kanye seems without merit to me.

But I know that rage news will continue on, so I try to find entertainment in this otherwise pointless enterprise.

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2 minutes ago, IFR said:

I'm further saying that we have no idea at all what social impact such statements will have - there's no merit to assuming it's going to normalize anything.

Yeah, this is where you're wrong.  We know that propagating such views encourages violence and emboldens bad actors.  This is an empirical fact that's unfortunately been demonstrated repeatedly in recent years.

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, this is where you're wrong.  We know that propagating such views encourages violence and emboldens bad actors.  This is an empirical fact that's unfortunately been demonstrated repeatedly in recent years.

We'll see if that applies here. Again, this Kanye fiasco is going to continue to happen regardless of what we say or do here, so in the future we'll be able to reflect on its impact. You and JGP seem to think it will have a negative effect. I don't; I think it will be another ephemeral rage topic before we move on to some other celebrity who says something crazy - possibly JK Rowlings. Though I suppose JGP will claim that racists are secretly rejoicing more regardless of what occurs in the future.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, IFR said:

We'll see if that applies here

'375% rise' in Islamophobic incidents after Boris Johnson's 'letterbox' comments

Quote

 

There was a "significant spike" in Islamophobic incidents in the wake of Boris Johnson's comparison between women in burkas and letterboxes, according to an anti-racism organisation.

Tell MAMA said there was a 375% increase in anti-Muslim incidents from the week before Mr Johnson made the comments to the week after.

In the week following the publication of Mr Johnson's controversial Telegraph column in which he compared veiled Muslim women to "letterboxes", 38 incidents were reported to police and Tell MAMA.

Of those incidents, 22 involved "visibly Muslim women who wore the face veil", according to the organisation.

 

 

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Yeah, when these things happen, it just emboldens all the shitheels in our societies. My dearest hope is that all these would-be-nazis get their faces kicked in.

As for Kayne - dude is a fucking asshole, but also seems like he needs medication.

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One thing to keep in mind is that, at least if we can trust comments he's made previously to be reflective of his inner truth, his antisemitism cannot be separated from his mental health for quite a different reason to anything we've talked about in here. 

One of his primary "inciting incidents" was deciding that the medication for his condition which was prescribed by his Jewish doctor was intended to poison him/do him harm in some way. His antisemitism continues to fester while he's not seeking treatment because the idea of getting treatment is twisted into a conspiracy theory that's justifying the antisemitism.

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1 hour ago, IFR said:

Right, so the argument to back up your original sarcastic sniping at my comment is an unsubstantiated speculation that racists are secretly rejoicing right now? And disregarding the backlash Kanye is being subject to from everyone (even Alex Jones) you idly muse that this may impact the state of antisemitism (to paraphrase your words "it's not going to help").

You're welcome to be patronizing, I suppose, but I would hope that you have something to justify your confidence. What is it Macbeth said about sound and fury?

I still fail to see how there is any benefit to making a media circus out of Kanye's situation. I've learned to orient myself to be amused rather than annoyed by constantly enraged media, but I still don't find much positive to it.

You're right. And that's fair. I mean, everyone can air any grief if they have it, or choose not. Media has some choices. They've made some already. Ye isn't always big news but he's news. This? Come on. 

I'm sorry for being patronizing. Was more like just, streaming here, more like something I didn't feel like arguing about about. That was dismissive of me and you're right to call it IFR.

I'm sorry.

Something remains. It isn't just antisemitism on the rise. Thats... spotlight right now, hot topic. And Ye is just so photogenic. 

If it isn't a moment right now it'll be a missed one. 

I don't know.   

 

Edited by JGP
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33 minutes ago, karaddin said:

One thing to keep in mind is that, at least if we can trust comments he's made previously to be reflective of his inner truth, his antisemitism cannot be separated from his mental health for quite a different reason to anything we've talked about in here. 

One of his primary "inciting incidents" was deciding that the medication for his condition which was prescribed by his Jewish doctor was intended to poison him/do him harm in some way. His antisemitism continues to fester while he's not seeking treatment because the idea of getting treatment is twisted into a conspiracy theory that's justifying the antisemitism.

Chewing on that for real. Isn't that something. Is that true?

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Here's My Take -- Kanye. He's acting to destroy (standardized cancel culture); so that he's crucfied (by the people); in order to be reborn (and influence society). It's performance art (Ba(a)lenciaga, the God Emperor, Nick & Milo, Tim & Alex, Elon, et al., are props), for the audience (all of us) who watch, encaptured; which represents an ongoing condition of success.

If this art piece fails, he'll remain wealthy, enigmatic, and famous notorious, which is the ideal state for celebrities of his grade. More, like J.K. Rowling, he's uncancellable and will continue to produce and profit. As @IFR correctly assessed -- in a month or two -- this piece will have concluded and faded, and we'll have moved on to his next piece, subject to our attention.

This reminds me of Shia LeBeouf, sincere in his performance art. Unlike Shia, who was thoroughly ridiculed / marginalized by 4Chan and others, Kanye seems to be succeeding based on how people are responding (e.g., genuine horror; literally shaking; empathy for mental illness, hahaha; and knowing amusement).

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16 hours ago, IFR said:

guess I'm missing the part where this has significance beyond the standard rage click controversies that are continuously occurring in the news cycle

You do remember he literally said he was going deathcon on Jews last month and republicans have consistently framed the negative response to him as overblown right?

14 hours ago, IFR said:

So your prediction is that this is going to cause a rise in antisemitism?

It will help.

14 hours ago, IFR said:

I've so far seen quite the opposite reaction. This seems be one of those rare cases where liberals and conservatives are in agreement that Kanye's message is unacceptable.

No. Nothing West has said yesterday is significantly different from what he’s been saying for weeks and conservatives uniformly  have been minimizing or defending for weeks.

He didn’t literally have to say “I like Hitler” for people to reasonably gleam he’s a nazi.

@cock_merchant do you think it’s still unfair to say west is a nazi at this point?

12 hours ago, IFR said:

And disregarding the backlash Kanye is being subject to from everyone (even Alex Jones) you idly muse that this may impact the state of antisemitism (to paraphrase your words "it's not going to help").

Did you watch the interview? I did. When Jones was railing against Soros, or Cancel culture  he got hyped up, declaring them evil, satanic.

When his guests said they liked Hitler and the Holocaust didn’t happen he only meekly occasionally disagreed tepidly as if Kanye has professed a preference to an odd pizza topping like mayo.

11 hours ago, IFR said:

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm explicitly saying the media attention is a bad thing, a cynical exploitation of mental illness that the media is embracing for the rage clicks (true to form)

Oh give it the rest the right’s been pushing the man as a prominent  conservative influencer as he’s spiraled down to nazism.

11 hours ago, IFR said:

I'm further saying that we have no idea at all what social impact such statements will have - there's no merit to assuming it's going to normalize anything.

Hey do you think it’s a bit worrisome that Alex Jones described Nick Fuentes a man who’s explicitly called for America to be a white-ethnostate isn’t a white supremacist?

11 hours ago, IFR said:

We'll see if that applies here.

So if  a couple of far right chuds Refrences west like they’ve done Candace Owens, or Lauren Southern  in a manifesto they write before a mass shoot in how would you respond?

11 hours ago, IFR said:

You and JGP seem to think it will have a negative effect. I don't; I think it will be another ephemeral rage topic before we move on to some other celebrity who says something crazy - possibly JK Rowlings.

Rowling is a legitimately to demonstrate the meaningless of celebrity’s expressed bigotry. She’s been integral in fostering the moral panic around trans people that’s lead to their rights and safety to be under threat.

11 hours ago, IFR said:

Though I suppose JGP will claim that racists are secretly rejoicing more regardless of what occurs in the future.

Dude, just go on pol, or look up how nazi groups are treating the development with west—they’ve been escaltic.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321
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20 hours ago, IFR said:

As far as I know, Trump, who is running again, invited him for dinner then later denounced hi

For bringing along a man who expressed much of the same viewpoints as west in regards to Jewish people.

20 hours ago, IFR said:

And then Alex Jones, who just lost a lawsuit for his Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, interviewed him.

Yes, one of the premier Right wing personalities and whose defamation trial against him is seen by many republicans as a gross injustice.

20 hours ago, IFR said:

Has the party actually embraced Kanye beyond that?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-judiciary-republicans-delete-kanye-elon-trump-tweet-rapper-prais-rcna59654
 

20 hours ago, IFR said:

I will occasionally browse the conservative subreddit and almost everyone there expresses scorn for Kanye.

You must understand there’s a vast difference into the levels of importance of random redditers expressing an opinion on Kanye and how republican media and party leadership has chosen to treat him.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321
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8 hours ago, Wade1865 said:

Here's My Take -- Kanye. He's acting to destroy (standardized cancel culture); so that he's crucfied (by the people); in order to be reborn (and influence society). It's performance art (Ba(a)lenciaga, the God Emperor, Nick & Milo, Tim & Alex, Elon, et al., are props), for the audience (all of us) who watch, encaptured; which represents an ongoing condition of success.

If this art piece fails, he'll remain wealthy, enigmatic, and famous notorious, which is the ideal state for celebrities of his grade. More, like J.K. Rowling, he's uncancellable and will continue to produce and profit. As @IFR correctly assessed -- in a month or two -- this piece will have concluded and faded, and we'll have moved on to his next piece, subject to our attention.

This reminds me of Shia LeBeouf, sincere in his performance art. Unlike Shia, who was thoroughly ridiculed / marginalized by 4Chan and others, Kanye seems to be succeeding based on how people are responding (e.g., genuine horror; literally shaking; empathy for mental illness, hahaha; and knowing amusement).

I still get the occasional passing suspicion that this acct is a sologdin alt.  

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12 hours ago, JGP said:

Chewing on that for real. Isn't that something. Is that true?

I went looking because I couldn't remember exactly what and where it was, this article

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-721072

Linked off to a tweet with a video of him being interviewed 

https://twitter.com/OGAride/status/1586583904718200832?t=PhUQ_dFgjIV4fUYndMz7Lw&s=19

I think the imbed is failing so pasted just the link as well, in that clip he says the following

Quote

...drove me to a point of exhaustion, which was misdiagnosed by a... I'm not going to say what race, that people...ah doctor, and what hospital and what media [unsure on this one] went to, we know I can't say that.

[Accompanies this with side sweeping motion indicating no, then crosses his arms]

It was a Jewish doctor. That diagnosed me with having a disorder that would have had me on medication right now.

At a time like this if I was on medication right now, then one pill could've been swapped out, and it would be Michael Jackson and Prince all over again. But because it didn't take the misdiagnosis, and I didn't take the medication, I'm able to speak to you guys clear and transparent.

ETA: The characterization of the details might not have been spot on, but the point that the antisemitism is directly connected to the rejection of treatment is reasonable imo.

Edited by karaddin
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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So if  a couple of far right chuds Refrences west like they’ve done Candace Owens, or Lauren Southern  in a manifesto they write before a mass shoot in how would you respond?

Any news reports that associate a rise in antisemitism with West's remarks would be some degree of evidence of the impact of his statements. Something like Spockdog's link to the correlation of Johnson's speech and incidences involving Muslisms would be particularly compelling evidence for me.

My opinion right now is that Kanye is mentally unwell and there isn't a demonstrably pernicious effect to his statements that would justify the sensationalistic media coverage occurring. I mean, in any case I think the media is an almost wholly amoral enterprise that heavily abuses whatever social utility it has to continuously present news in the most emotionally charged fashion so that they can get more clicks. But I think this particularly applies here. I believe the ratio of the utility of covering Kanye vs the social effect of Kanye's statements is extremely low, which leads me to reiterate my previous statement that this is a simply part of a highly cynical news cycle.

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21 minutes ago, IFR said:

Any news reports that associate a rise in antisemitism with West's remarks would be some degree of evidence of the impact of his statements. Something like Spockdog's link to the correlation of Johnson's speech and incidences involving Muslisms would be particularly compelling evidence for me.

My opinion right now is that Kanye is mentally unwell and there isn't a demonstrably pernicious effect to his statements that would justify the sensationalistic media coverage occurring. I mean, in any case I think the media is an almost wholly amoral enterprise that heavily abuses whatever social utility it has to continuously present news in the most emotionally charged fashion so that they can get more clicks. But I think this particularly applies here. I believe the ratio of the utility of covering Kanye vs the social effect of Kanye's statements is extremely low, which leads me to reiterate my previous statement that this is a simply part of a highly cynical news cycle.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/11/04/us/kanye-antisemitism-midterms.amp.html

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-23/kanye-is-right-about-the-jews-more-antisemitic-hate-seen-in-l-a-after-rappers-remarks

 

https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/11/16/what-behind-uptick-antisemitic-hate-speech

Edited by Larry of the Lake
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2 hours ago, IFR said:

I believe the ratio of the utility of covering Kanye vs the social effect of Kanye's statements is extremely low, which leads me to reiterate my previous statement that this is a simply part of a highly cynical news cycle.

It wouldn’t have be covered if the Republican just abandoned him months ago when he became explicitly anti-semtic.

 

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