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North to South, Ice to Fire. What's up with the polar alignments of Planetos?


Sandy Clegg

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I was looking at the passage where Dany burns Drogo's body on the pyre and noticed this detail and couldn't believe I'd never noticed it before. It regards the connection of north and south with ice and fire:

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The third level of the platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs. They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks. The sun had begun to lower toward the west by the time they were done. Dany called the Dothraki around her. Fewer than a hundred were left. How many had Aegon started with? she wondered. It did not matter.

North is associated with ice, fire with south. Is this association mentioned elsewhere in the books, or is this just a Dothraki thing? I suppose it is logical, as no 'South Pole' has yet been discovered in GRRM's world. They are basically analogous to medieval Europe/Asia, where going south means getting hotter and going north means you eventually run into ice floes. So all seems very ordinary from this perspective.

It does lend a different flavour to the title of the whole series, however. A Song of North and South? GRRM has suggested that we may never learn the mystery behind why the seasons of Planetos are so skewed, but he certainly does like to tease readers with hints. And there are several theories are out there suggesting that the event which caused the long night somehow threw 'Planetos' off its axis and messed with the polar alignments. Then there are the few references to compass points being unnaturally placed in the series - most famously by Mirri Mazz Duur when she tells Dany her womb will quicken again when the sun 'rises in the west'. 'To go north, you must go south'. Etc. But then I noticed the names of two places in Essos which also have rather odd-sounding names. Naath and Saath.

Being from London, I immediately recognise these as phonetic cognates for North and South (they're kind of similar to how all cockneys would pronounce them to be honest). Yet Saath is on the north coast of Essos, and Naath is far to the south, an island in the Basilisk Isles off the coast of Sothyros.

These could be sly world-building hints that the planetary axis isn't as it should be. So guys - what other hints are there in the books that might point to this?

 

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On 12/2/2022 at 2:29 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Being from London, I immediately recognise these as phonetic cognates for North and South (they're kind of similar to how all cockneys would pronounce them to be honest). Yet Saath is on the north coast of Essos, and Naath is far to the south, an island in the Basilisk Isles off the coast of Sothyros.

These could be sly world-building hints that the planetary axis isn't as it should be. So guys - what other hints are there in the books that might point to this?

 

That lemurs which normally inhabit the tropical jungles of Sothoryos and the Summer Isles are found as far north as Qohor is an oddity: 

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and even a species of lemur—a creature known from the Summer Isles and Sothoryos, but otherwise rarely seen farther north. These lemurs are said to have silver-white fur and purple eyes, and are sometimes called Little Valyrians.

Since global warming is characterized by a poleward shift of plant and animal species to territories previously too cold for habitation, this could be a hint at the long term outcome of long hot summers. But it could also point to a reversal of north and south poles. 

There's another similar instance from one of Catelyn's chapters in the riverlands. This time its snow shrikes normally seen in the deep of winter in the north appearing much farther south in the still warm Riverlands:

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A bird called faintly in the distance, a high sharp trill that felt like an icy hand on Catelyn’s neck. Another bird answered; a third, a fourth. She knew their call well enough, from her years at Winterfell. Snow shrikes. Sometimes you saw them in the deep of winter, when the godswood was white and still. They were northern birds.

 

The Sword of the Morning constellation is perhaps also worth looking at. Jon sees it hanging in the south. I'm thinking the real-life parallel to the Sword of the Morning is the Southern Cross (Crux), normally only visible in southern latitudes where its role is similar to that of the Pole Star, pointing closely toward the celestial south pole.  So it's always above the horizon in southern latitudes and rarely ever rises in the northern hemisphere except at rare times in winter and spring, when it can be seen in tropical latitudes near the equator. Like the Little Dipper with its pole star, Crux is an important navigational guide in the southern hemisphere.

It's possible that "Nymeria's Star," named as such by Arianne, is a star in the Sword of the Morning constellation:

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The sun was gone, and the sky was full of stars. So many. She leaned her back against a fluted pillar and wondered if her brother was looking at the same stars tonight, wherever he might be. Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria’s star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. 

Did the legendary Nymeria follow this star when she headed due north? That would be rather odd if this star is within the SotM constellation, and if the latter parallels Crux. Why wouldn't she have followed the star in the Ice Dragon to travel due north instead. And why would it be visible so prominently in the northern hemisphere? 

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

 

That lemurs which normally inhabit the tropical jungles of Sothoryos and the Summer Isles are found as far north as Qohor is an oddity: 

Since global warming is characterized by a poleward shift of plant and animal species to territories previously too cold for habitation, this could be a hint at the long term outcome of long hot summers. But it could also point to a reversal of north and south poles. 

There's another similar instance from one of Catelyn's chapters in the riverlands. This time its snow shrikes normally seen in the deep of winter in the north appearing much farther south in the still warm Riverlands:

 

The Sword of the Morning constellation is perhaps also worth looking at. Jon sees it hanging in the south. I'm thinking the real-life parallel to the Sword of the Morning is the Southern Cross (Crux), normally only visible in southern latitudes where its role is similar to that of the Pole Star, pointing closely toward the celestial south pole.  So it's always above the horizon in southern latitudes and rarely ever rises in the northern hemisphere except at rare times in winter and spring, when it can be seen in tropical latitudes near the equator. Like the Little Dipper with its pole star, Crux is an important navigational guide in the southern hemisphere.

It's possible that "Nymeria's Star," named as such by Arianne, is a star in the Sword of the Morning constellation:

Did the legendary Nymeria follow this star when she headed due north? That would be rather odd if this star is within the SotM constellation, and if the latter parallels Crux. Why wouldn't she have followed the star in the Ice Dragon to travel due north instead. And why would it be visible so prominently in the northern hemisphere? 

These point to ASOIAF being post-apocalyptic Earth, I suppose. Which I'm kind of 50/50 about. I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, but in GRRM I have faith, so obviously he could make it work. The constellations do seem to be relevant symbolically if nothing else. Apparently they were going to have a section on them in the World of Ice and Fire book? Not sure where I read that but I'm sorry they weren't included!

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1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

The constellations do seem to be relevant symbolically if nothing else. Apparently they were going to have a section on them in the World of Ice and Fire book? Not sure where I read that but I'm sorry they weren't included!

Yes, that'a a pity but speaking of constellations and navigating by the stars has given me another thought. I do  not recall the use of compasses in the story. Davos speaks of certain constellations as an aid to sailing the seas. One would think that nations advanced in crossing the various seas might use an instrument such as the compass. 

The first Dayne followed a star and of course the Ice Dragon points due north. A compass makes use of the earth's geomagnetic field and so in fact do migratory birds. Again, I don't recall any description or mention of migratory birds. GRRM gives us some wildlife and plenty of plant life but apart from the shrike moving south, there's no other mention of birds migrating. The shrike itself is a bit of an enigma because judging by Catelyn's  thoughts, it's a northern bird usually seen in the depths of winter when everything is frozen. This implies a frosty environment as its chosen habitat and that when it flies south, it's expanding its territory to include a region that will soon be subject to the cold. 

I find a lack of migratory birds suspicious, especially since we get mentions of bats, which in contrast, navigate and find prey by echolocation. The absence of migratory birds could be due to environmental degradation further south, if they once flew to Essos, for example. There's plenty of evidence for the drying up of lakes for instance, locations that may have been suitable as breeding and or feeding grounds. Bird migration is also seasonal. With no regular defining seasons as well as year-long summers, this behaviour may have been modified. Yet winter is coming and there is narry a bird on the move in Westeros. 

So what if birds no longer migrate because of changes to the planet's geomagnetic field? Could the Naath / Saath reversal indicate a switch in the geomagnetic poles rather than a switching of the geographic poles? Iron is key to the formation of the earth's electromagnetic field. Iron is also important to the narrative. The Iron Islands, dragonbone is high in iron, iron is a metal that fights the cold. Rhaegar spoke in "iron tones." Hm. And there is Needle. Could this also be a reference to a compass needle? Arya spends all her time in the Riverlands travelling from one place to another and never seems to reach her destination. She loses Needle along the way, recovers it and hides it inbetween some stone brickwork. There are several references to orientation in her chapters. Lacking a compass, she examines moss growing on trees for instance. 
Actually, I think I'll have a good look at this idea.

 

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On 12/2/2022 at 7:29 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

I was looking at the passage where Dany burns Drogo's body on the pyre and noticed this detail and couldn't believe I'd never noticed it before. It regards the connection of north and south with ice and fire:

North is associated with ice, fire with south. Is this association mentioned elsewhere in the books, or is this just a Dothraki thing? I suppose it is logical, as no 'South Pole' has yet been discovered in GRRM's world. They are basically analogous to medieval Europe/Asia, where going south means getting hotter and going north means you eventually run into ice floes. So all seems very ordinary from this perspective.

It does lend a different flavour to the title of the whole series, however. A Song of North and South? GRRM has suggested that we may never learn the mystery behind why the seasons of Planetos are so skewed, but he certainly does like to tease readers with hints. And there are several theories are out there suggesting that the event which caused the long night somehow threw 'Planetos' off its axis and messed with the polar alignments. Then there are the few references to compass points being unnaturally placed in the series - most famously by Mirri Mazz Duur when she tells Dany her womb will quicken again when the sun 'rises in the west'. 'To go north, you must go south'. Etc. But then I noticed the names of two places in Essos which also have rather odd-sounding names. Naath and Saath.

Being from London, I immediately recognise these as phonetic cognates for North and South (they're kind of similar to how all cockneys would pronounce them to be honest). Yet Saath is on the north coast of Essos, and Naath is far to the south, an island in the Basilisk Isles off the coast of Sothyros.

These could be sly world-building hints that the planetary axis isn't as it should be. So guys - what other hints are there in the books that might point to this?

 

 

MMD's "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east -- when your womb quickens again" is pretty unambiguously her saying "never" to Dany, IMO, nothing to do with the poles being reversed.  And Quaithe's "to go north you must go south" is a reference to the fact that there is stuff in Asshai that Dany desperately needs to know before she goes to Westeros.

The Naath and Saath, though, are interesting.  It IS odd how they sound like North and South with a cockney accent.  But....what do the words mean in the languages they were coined in?  It's more likely to be coincidence than anything...but maybe not.

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13 hours ago, Evolett said:

Yes, that'a a pity but speaking of constellations and navigating by the stars has given me another thought. I do  not recall the use of compasses in the story. Davos speaks of certain constellations as an aid to sailing the seas. One would think that nations advanced in crossing the various seas might use an instrument such as the compass. 

The first Dayne followed a star and of course the Ice Dragon points due north. A compass makes use of the earth's geomagnetic field and so in fact do migratory birds. Again, I don't recall any description or mention of migratory birds. GRRM gives us some wildlife and plenty of plant life but apart from the shrike moving south, there's no other mention of birds migrating. The shrike itself is a bit of an enigma because judging by Catelyn's  thoughts, it's a northern bird usually seen in the depths of winter when everything is frozen. This implies a frosty environment as its chosen habitat and that when it flies south, it's expanding its territory to include a region that will soon be subject to the cold. 

I find a lack of migratory birds suspicious, especially since we get mentions of bats, which in contrast, navigate and find prey by echolocation. The absence of migratory birds could be due to environmental degradation further south, if they once flew to Essos, for example. There's plenty of evidence for the drying up of lakes for instance, locations that may have been suitable as breeding and or feeding grounds. Bird migration is also seasonal. With no regular defining seasons as well as year-long summers, this behaviour may have been modified. Yet winter is coming and there is narry a bird on the move in Westeros. 

So what if birds no longer migrate because of changes to the planet's geomagnetic field? Could the Naath / Saath reversal indicate a switch in the geomagnetic poles rather than a switching of the geographic poles? Iron is key to the formation of the earth's electromagnetic field. Iron is also important to the narrative. The Iron Islands, dragonbone is high in iron, iron is a metal that fights the cold. Rhaegar spoke in "iron tones." Hm. And there is Needle. Could this also be a reference to a compass needle? Arya spends all her time in the Riverlands travelling from one place to another and never seems to reach her destination. She loses Needle along the way, recovers it and hides it inbetween some stone brickwork. There are several references to orientation in her chapters. Lacking a compass, she examines moss growing on trees for instance. 
Actually, I think I'll have a good look at this idea.

 

You've actually hit on something most people don't know about the history of sea-faring cultures, and a relatively great mystery in our own world.  Humans have known how to chart latitude for a very long time, as it can be done using the stars.  Longitude is significantly harder to calculate and a reliable method for measuring it was not developed till much later than latitude.  Before that discovery, longitudinal location had to be estimated by hoping your heading was straight and using the average speed of your ship to plot your location, with readings being taken regularly so as to avoid compounding errors.

The technology in Planetos appears to be pre-accurate-longitude.  A compass is limited because it always points north, so if that's the only thing you're using to measure which way you're going, you can actually wander SIGNIFICANTLY north/south and still think you were going straight.  Using stars to correctly identify if you've wandered north/south was the only way to maintain an idea of how straight you were going east/west.  So, I don't think there's any great mystery there, since that's exactly what is depicted.

In our own world, the inability to exactly calculate longitude meant that accurately plotting distances, or the exact shape of shore-lines, was impossible.  This is why so many very old maps look stretched/odd.  They knew where they were in terms of latitude but not longitude, and they were having to make their best guess.  The mysterious part is that the very oldest maps, ones that were compiled and copied from some of the first global maps (they were likely based on surviving maps from the Library of Alexandria) had extremely accurate measurements of coastlines - it gets even weirder if you look at the oldest maps of Antarctica.  They appear to show an accurate coastline....but without the ice.  They accurately show the shape of the coast UNDER the ice, which implies that somebody had latitude, longitude, and global circumnavigation figured out about 12,000 years ago, the last time the rocky coastline of Antarctica was exposed.  Those same maps also depict the continents having a different shape, with much more land-mass exposed, and the images are spot-on accurate if you take a map and drop the sea level 400 feet (the sea rose about 400 feet when the ice age ended).

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10 hours ago, Ring3r said:

But....what do the words mean in the languages they were coined in?  It's more likely to be coincidence than anything...but maybe not.

Have you actually located them on the world map? If you have the official app you can see really clearly that they are located on the same line of latitude pretty much. Naath in the south is directly on the opposite end of the line from Saath (in the North). GRRM could be just having a sly joke, but I tend to believe it harks back to that very early Tyrion quote from AGOT:

 

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Tyrion Lannister knew the maps as well as anyone, but a fortnight on the wild track that passed for the kingsroad up here had brought home the lesson that the map was one thing and the land quite another.

 

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1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Have you actually located them on the world map? If you have the official app you can see really clearly that they are located on the same line of latitude pretty much. Naath in the south is directly on the opposite end of the line from Saath (in the North). GRRM could be just having a sly joke, but I tend to believe it harks back to that very early Tyrion quote from AGOT:

 

 

I did, actually.  I suspect that Tyrion's comment refers to exactly what I'm talking about....the imprecise nature and reliance on landmarks that maps had before longitude could be accurately figured :)

Take a look at the last paragraph of my previous post...the real world bit. I'm very much convinced that GRRM is aware of this and, much like he's co-opted real historical events for the politics...he's co-opted real historical events for the pre-history of his world.  Too many things match up.  Lost civilization, lost culture, civilizations not remembering where they came from, lost technology....I really do think that he had these things in mind when he imagined the pre-history of the story.  He's put his magical spin on it, naturally, but the myths match up way too well for coincidence.  Many of the names of places in Essos imply that they used to be underwater, before the glaciers formed and the sea level dropped.  There's so many examples, if you look at an official Planetos map, but the most obvious is the Dothraki Sea.  I think it really did used to be a sea, and the reason the Dothraki are so averse to the ocean is....they used to be sea faring and the sudden disruption obliterated their culture.

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10 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

I did, actually.  I suspect that Tyrion's comment refers to exactly what I'm talking about....the imprecise nature and reliance of landmarks that maps had before longitude could be accurately figured :)

Well there is a difference: both are clues provided by GRRM. 1) Tyrion's comment. 2) The Naath / Saath paradox. To say that 2 is explained by 1 ignores the more probable likelihood that both 1 + 2 point to possibility number 3:   something is up with the layout of the geography in Planetos, and we should be sceptical of taking maps at face value.

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1 minute ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well there is a difference: both are clues provided by GRRM. 1) Tyrion's comment. 2) The Naath / Saath paradox. To say that 2 is explained by 1 ignores the more probable likelihood that both 1 + 2 point to possibility number 3:   something is up with the layout of the geography in Planetos, and we should be sceptical of reading them at face value.

Sorry, I edited what I said and added additional stuff while you were typing this.  I hate posting two things in a row if I forget to mention things

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If Sothroyos is the equivalent of Africa than all of Essos is on the northern hemisphere of Planetos.

 

I don't see any reason to suppose there's no southern pole.

And if anything, East is fire not south

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On 12/2/2022 at 2:29 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

GRRM has suggested that we may never learn the mystery behind why the seasons of Planetos are so skewed

Not all:

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The most conspicuous aspect of the world of Westeros in The Song of Ice and Fire is the nature of the seasons, the long and random nature of the seasons. I have gotten a number of fan letters over the years from readers who are trying to figure out the reason for why the seasons are the way they are. They develop lengthy theories: perhaps it’s a multiple-star system, and what the axial tilt is, but I have to say, “Nice try, guys, but you’re thinking in the wrong direction.” This is a fantasy series. I am going to explain it all eventually, but it’s going to be a fantasy explanation. It’s not going to be a science-fiction explanation.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070620204941/http:/www.darkfantasy.org/weirdtales/2007/05/george-rr-martin-on-magic-vs-science.html

We also find that confirmation in 3 con reports: Comic-Con (San Diego, CA; July 20-23)US Signing Tour (Ann Arbor, MI) and Conestoga (Tulsa, OK; July 15-17).

And he is clear on the fact that it is a fantasy explanation and not a sci-fi one.
The axis of the planet didn't change, I don't think they ever mentioned some change in the constellations appearing in the sky.
By looking at the stars, the seasons should be regulars and ancient tales mentioned that they were:

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Though the Citadel has long sought to learn the manner by which it may predict the length and change of seasons, all efforts have been confounded. Septon Barth appeared to argue, in a fragmentary treatise, that the inconstancy of the seasons was a matter of magical art rather than trustworthy knowledge. Maester Nicol's The Measure of the Days—otherwise a laudable work containing much of use—seems influenced by this argument. Based upon his work on the movement of stars in the firmament, Nicol argues unconvincingly that the seasons might once have been of a regular length, determined solely by the way in which the globe faces the sun in its heavenly course. The notion behind it seems true enough—that the lengthening and shortening of days, if more regular, would have led to more regular seasons—but he could find no evidence that such was ever the case, beyond the most ancient of tales.
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

The explanation is magical, out of the 4 seasons only winter and summer are affected.
It's the Song of Ice and Fire, winter and summer... the Others with ice magic and the Dragonlords with fire magic...

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There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war.
A Storm of Swords - Davos III

 

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6 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

And he is clear on the fact that it is a fantasy explanation and not a sci-fi one.

All true, but it's worth considering what counts as a "fantasy" explanation versus a "sci-fi" one, especially because GRRM  often exhibits genre-blending even in works that he labels as a particular genre.

For instance, he considers Bitterblooms and In the House of the Worm to be fantasy, and they do read like fantasy, but they're also "secret sci-fi." Both stories feature passing descriptions of advanced technology from the vantage points of characters who interpret everything as magic.

I don't think ASOIAF will really be secret sci-fi, but I do think it could feature some crazy "bio-technology," like telekinetic plant creatures pulling down astral bodies and screwing with planetary orbits. He certainly thinks about natural constraints even for his supernatural phenomena, so...just a reminder to take what GRRM says with a grain of salt.

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On 12/4/2022 at 2:04 AM, Ring3r said:

You've actually hit on something most people don't know about the history of sea-faring cultures, and a relatively great mystery in our own world.  Humans have known how to chart latitude for a very long time, as it can be done using the stars.  Longitude is significantly harder to calculate and a reliable method for measuring it was not developed till much later than latitude.  Before that discovery, longitudinal location had to be estimated by hoping your heading was straight and using the average speed of your ship to plot your location, with readings being taken regularly so as to avoid compounding errors.

Thanks for this short lesson on longitudinal location. Might be the people of Planetos never developed other methods to travel the oceans. Certainly, the Narrow Sea could only have been accessed from the north by the sea route prior to the breaking of the Arm of Dorne, which may explain why the ancients who settled at Oldtown chose the west coast rather than the east coast of Westeros. Same goes for the legendary ancestors of the Iron Isles who according to legend came from beyond the Sunset Sea.

Nevertheless, I still think there is something to the theme of navigation in the story. Our two opposites, ice and fire are also contrasted by their mobility. Dragons are able to cross most boundaries and hinderances simply because they fly. The white walkers on the other hand are earth bound, definitely not as flexible as far as getting around goes, even if they do manage to cross the Wall. How dragons and their riders find their way to completely unknown territory is also a mystery. Jaenara Belaerys is said to have flown to Sothoryos on her dragon Terrax (good name for a dragon carrying an explorer!). She investigated the continent for three years and found her way home. Is this a hint that the Old Valyrians had more advanced maps or methods of navigating? Do dragons have some kind of in-built system of navigation similar to that of migratory birds; does the high iron content of their bones coupled with the heat of their bodies generate an electromagnetic field akin to that of planet earth? Do dragons have more than just a homing instinct? Does the name Terrax allude to a map?

 

 

Naath / North – Saath / South

The people of Naath share many similarities with the CotF. Even their god, the Lord of Harmony who with all those swarms of slender maidens attending him, seems a loose parallel to Garth Greenhand. Westeros is north of Naath and perhaps the wordplay on North serves to tell us that the Naathi definitely originated farther North, perhaps from Westeros, or from the forests where the Ifequevron, another race reminiscent of the CotF live.

Saath, last remaining city of the Sarnori, would then mirror an ancient empire once found down south. The Sarnori states once numbered eleven before all except Saath were destroyed by the Dothraki. Maybe this is telling us that a southern empire such as the GEotD was ultimately destroyed in a similar fashion, with only one of its satellite states remaining to this day.

So rather than a switch in poles, the Naath / Saath mention  may be informing us on the history and the migratory routes of the CotF and those ancients who once occupied the south.

 

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On 12/5/2022 at 11:56 AM, Evolett said:

Thanks for this short lesson on longitudinal location. Might be the people of Planetos never developed other methods to travel the oceans. Certainly, the Narrow Sea could only have been accessed from the north by the sea route prior to the breaking of the Arm of Dorne, which may explain why the ancients who settled at Oldtown chose the west coast rather than the east coast of Westeros. Same goes for the legendary ancestors of the Iron Isles who according to legend came from beyond the Sunset Sea.

Nevertheless, I still think there is something to the theme of navigation in the story. Our two opposites, ice and fire are also contrasted by their mobility. Dragons are able to cross most boundaries and hinderances simply because they fly. The white walkers on the other hand are earth bound, definitely not as flexible as far as getting around goes, even if they do manage to cross the Wall. How dragons and their riders find their way to completely unknown territory is also a mystery. Jaenara Belaerys is said to have flown to Sothoryos on her dragon Terrax (good name for a dragon carrying an explorer!). She investigated the continent for three years and found her way home. Is this a hint that the Old Valyrians had more advanced maps or methods of navigating? Do dragons have some kind of in-built system of navigation similar to that of migratory birds; does the high iron content of their bones coupled with the heat of their bodies generate an electromagnetic field akin to that of planet earth? Do dragons have more than just a homing instinct? Does the name Terrax allude to a map?

 

 

Naath / North – Saath / South

The people of Naath share many similarities with the CotF. Even their god, the Lord of Harmony who with all those swarms of slender maidens attending him, seems a loose parallel to Garth Greenhand. Westeros is north of Naath and perhaps the wordplay on North serves to tell us that the Naathi definitely originated farther North, perhaps from Westeros, or from the forests where the Ifequevron, another race reminiscent of the CotF live.

Saath, last remaining city of the Sarnori, would then mirror an ancient empire once found down south. The Sarnori states once numbered eleven before all except Saath were destroyed by the Dothraki. Maybe this is telling us that a southern empire such as the GEotD was ultimately destroyed in a similar fashion, with only one of its satellite states remaining to this day.

So rather than a switch in poles, the Naath / Saath mention  may be informing us on the history and the migratory routes of the CotF and those ancients who once occupied the south.

 

Something like the children of the forest DEFINITELY existed in Essos...but it seems they've all been wiped out.  I wonder if the shade of the evening trees were their gods?

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13 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Something like the children of the forest DEFINITELY existed in Essos...but it seems they've all been wiped out.  I wonder if the shade of the evening trees were their gods?

That's what I think. I mean, there are obvious parallels between the CotF, the Ifequevron, the Naathi and the Lengii, with shared features, imagery etc. Most prominent are the golden eyes, variations on brown skin, the forests, underground labyrniths and an association with giants. A Garth Greenhand / First Men echo also pops up in the form of  Jar Har, the sea-green emperor of Yi Ti who conquered Leng, driving the native Lengii south where they remain, while the north is populated by people from Yi Ti. 

Perhaps human Naathi and Lengi intermingled with the original CotF or perhaps they are sub-groups of the same species as the CotF, who knows? The Lengii are also said to have consorted with the Old Ones residing in subterranea while the CotF worship the Old Gods and live in caverns amidst weirwood roots. Perhaps these Essosi versions of the CotF also worshipped the shade trees (which I think were cedar trees) before the trees were corrupted. I also think the Westerosi CotF broke the Arm of Dorne to stop the corruption affecting the trees in Essos from spreading to their weirwoods in Westeros (this would have been an issue if the trees form a continent-wide underground network).

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