The Crimes of Tyrion Lannister

[Craving Peaches]

35 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Scottish criminal law? Fort some reason the Essosi don't seem to be acknowledging that.

Well it's not just Scottish, but found in common law systems across the world. Of course they don't use it in Essos, but I still don't see why that means I can't mention the defence. I just don't think Tyrion trying to escape forced bondage can really be considered a crime. Slavery is prohibited by the Faith, and per the agreement with Daenerys, should the Yunkai'i really be practicing slavery?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, EggBlue said:

why we are counting his crimes?

Because someone has a test on criminal law coming up...

And because I did one for Cersei, so it's only fair that Tyrion gets one too. And daddy dearest next.

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

That does not appear to be the position of the Yunkai.

Yes, the Yunkai would have that position. Let's not mince words. The Yunkai are an inherently evil, corrupt and sinister society that does not deserve to exist. Individidual members of the Yunkai? They absolutely deserve life and freedom and all the rest of those good things, provided they don't use that to enslave and torture others. The society itself? It is inherently illigitimate, and breaking the "laws" of such a society makes one a hero, not a criminal.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said:

It is inherently illigitimate, and breaking the "laws" of such a society makes one a hero, not a criminal.

If laws are not fit for purpose, they need to be changed. I doubt Yunkai has a robust process of internal law reform, so pressure to change those laws must come from the outside.

[Gilbert Green]

- Taught Jon how to be a self-pitying jerk. (Corrupting the youth).

- Failed the doggy smell test.

- Stole Pycelle's poisons, presumably for no good purpose.

- Sent Myrcella to Dorne to be killed.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

- Stole Pycelle's poisons, presumably for no good purpose.

Yes, I forgot about this one. Will add theft to the list.

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

- Taught Jon how to be a self-pitying jerk. (Corrupting the youth).

The issue here is that Tyrion thought he was giving advice, and Jon thought he was recieving advice. I don't think Tyrion had any criminal intent.

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

- Sent Myrcella to Dorne to be killed.

I thought he sent her to Dorne to be safe? Though obviously she isn't. Perhaps Tyrion should have thought this one through more. Maybe it would be enough to constitute reckless endangerment. Tyrion should be able to realise that the Dornish are revenge obsessed.

[EggBlue]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Because someone has a test on criminal law coming up...

And because I did one for Cersei, so it's only fair that Tyrion gets one too. And daddy dearest next.

don't forget the golden boy then!

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

don't forget the golden boy then!

Saving the best until last 

[Hugorfonics]

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I just don't think Tyrion trying to escape forced bondage can really be considered a crime. Slavery is prohibited by the Faith, and per the agreement with Daenerys, should the Yunkai'i really be practicing slavery?

Yes. That was the agreement. Well, one of them. There's no doubt that Tyrion acted criminally in his escape from bondage and his 1st degree murder of Nurse.

Most of the others tho I'd say he's largely innocent. Rape of the slave girl in our world but in Volantis he's just having sex with a prostitute. Assault? It's his child nephew, he shouldn't smack him but I'd hardly call it assault. Same with theft, dudes hand, of course he can play with Pycelles toys.

Murder of Symon I wouldn't even call first degree because of the threats and Tyrion didn't actually pull any trigger. He did murder Shae but he clearly could plead some type of insanity there, probably not with Tywin though. Thats clear intent. 

I'm also confused on fraud and embezzlement. Unless fraud was when he hired some further criminals to infiltrate Riverrun under the guise of truce to free Jaime and murder Edmures men. That sounds pretty illigal 

[sifth]

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

 And daddy dearest next.

You might as well just put every crime imaginable, for that one, lol

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue here is that Tyrion thought he was giving advice, and Jon thought he was recieving advice. I don't think Tyrion had any criminal intent.

You are right of course.  The truth is I'm just being creative, because it would be tedious to list the people he has raped and murdered.  Anyhow, you seem to be looking for a list of crimes, not a list of victims.

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought he sent her to Dorne to be safe? Though obviously she isn't.

I thought he sent Myrcella for political reasons.  Later, he cements her doom by getting the Red Viper killed.  Later, he tells Illyrio he wants to make Myrcella queen.  Illryio says to queen her is to kill her and you know that.  Tyrion internal monologue says, yes, to queen her is to kill her, and I did know that.

[Gilbert Green]

Kidnapping (arguably) based on his failure to return Shae after he learned that his minion Bronn, acting under color of Tyrion's authority, seized her at knifepoint.  The difficulty here is that nobody can disprove the fantasy that, even though Shae's prior beau was menaced with death, Shae herself was completely willing.  But a knife brandished by a brutal thug means something, even when not directly applied to her own throat, and even if she cared nothing for the life of her prior beau (which is uncertain at best). 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'm also confused on fraud and embezzlement. Unless fraud was when he hired some further criminals to infiltrate Riverrun under the guise of truce to free Jaime and murder Edmures men. That sounds pretty illigal 

I don't think I mentioned embezzlement, it was extortion that was on this list I believe. As for fraud, it was his fraudulent claiming to be 'Hugor Hill' I had in mind. The Jaime incident was during a period of war so I don't know if it counts.

33 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I thought he sent Myrcella for political reasons.  Later, he cements her doom by getting the Red Viper killed.  Later, he tells Illyrio he wants to make Myrcella queen.  Illryio says to queen her is to kill her and you know that.  Tyrion internal monologue says, yes, to queen her is to kill her, and I did know that.

You might be right that it was for political reasons. He wanted to appease the Martells to prevent them from joining one of the other pretenders.  But I also thought it was because he wanted her out of the city in case it fell to Stannis. Also, it wasn't really Tyrion's fault Oberyn died. It was Oberyn's. Not that people in Dorne seem to be able to appreciate the difference, blaming the Crown for his death in a trial by combat the man volunteered to participate in.

1 hour ago, sifth said:

You might as well just put every crime imaginable, for that one, lol

It may be a long list. But I will persevere. An issue is that even though Tywin has not himself committed every crime, he is art and part liable for a lot of the actions of his subordinates because he ordered them to do it and plotted and so on.

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Kidnapping (arguably) based on his failure to return Shae after he learned that his minion Bronn, acting under color of Tyrion's authority, seized her at knifepoint.

Tyrion ordered Bronn to do it. So he may be guilty of abduction alongside Bronn.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

There's no doubt that Tyrion acted criminally in his escape from bondage and his 1st degree murder of Nurse.

The killing of Nurse was murder. But him escaping slavery alone I don't think counts as a crime.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Murder of Symon I wouldn't even call first degree because of the threats and Tyrion didn't actually pull any trigger.

Tyrion did not have to order Bronn to kill Symon. He could have dealt with the situation in another way. And just because he was threatened doesn't mean he can murder people.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

He did murder Shae but he clearly could plead some type of insanity there

Diminished responsibility maybe, or possibly provocation, but he doesn't meet the requirements for a mental disorder plea (where I live, and likely in Westeros too he wouldn't be seen as insane).

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Rape of the slave girl in our world but in Volantis he's just having sex with a prostitute.

A prostitute who is a slave, who he couldn't even communicate with because they had no common tongue.

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It may be a long list. But I will persevere. An issue is that even though Tywin has not himself committed every crime, he is art and part liable for a lot of the actions of his subordinates because he ordered them to do it and plotted and so on.

He's basically a crime boss. "My hands are clean; I had no idea one of my close friends, did this horrible thing".

[Gilbert Green]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyrion ordered Bronn to do it. So he may be guilty of abduction alongside Bronn.

I'm sure that deep down, Tyrion understands the implications of using a brutal thug as a sexual procurer.

But it's not quite so simple as saying that Tyrion ordered Bronn to do it.  He prefers the fantasy that his "whores" are eager and willing, not sullen rape victims.  He merely ordered Bronn to find him a whore.  He'd rather not know about the methods.

When Bronn reports that he seized Shae from the knight at blade-point, Tyrion objects to his methods -- or pretends to.  But Bronn calls his bluff by asking, do you want me to bring her back?  Tyrion says no, and (in my opinion) becomes a kidnapper at that point, if not earlier.

[Gilbert Green]

Bigamy - he married Tysha, then Sansa.  The "annulment" is merely a false adjudication that goes against the underlying reality.  The difficulty, however, is proving Tysha is still alive.  This difficulty is no credit to Tyrion, though.  It is not as though he ever tried to find her, before marrying Sansa.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Bigamy - he married Tysha, then Sansa.  The "annulment" is merely a false adjudication that goes against the underlying reality.  The difficulty, however, is proving Tysha is still alive.  This difficulty is no credit to Tyrion, though.  It is not as though he ever tried to find her, before marrying Sansa.

You say that like it was Tyrion's choice to end his marriage. His father and brother both lied to him about Tysha. Tyrion has done some horrible things and his involvement in the gang rape is certainly one of them, but what happened to Tysha both starts and ends with Tywin. He also forced Tyrion to remarry as well, I don't recall him saying it had to be Sansa, but he did say that Tyrion would marry someone and soon. I recall Tyrion even offering Sansa an out, by saying something like "I know this sucks and I'm ugly, but my father is forcing this on you; just say the word and I'll end this matter and arrange a more attractive Lannister to marry you".

[Gilbert Green]

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

You say that like it was Tyrion's choice to end his marriage.

If the marriage was originally valid, which it was, then there is no choice.  It lasts until death do them part.  There is no divorce.  Nobody can end the marriage. 

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

His father and brother both lied to him about Tysha.

Tyrion knew she was a virgin when he married her.  He knew they both said their vows.  No claim was ever made that Tysha had betrayed him in any way.

The lies made no sense, and even if true in some sense (what exactly is a "virgin whore" anyway?), do not change the fact that whores and ex whores can and do marry.  Tyrion married Tysha.  Then abandoned and betrayed her.  Not to mention his participation in the gang rape.  "Whore" or not, she kept her vows and he broke his.

The only part of the lie that made any remote sense -- and apparently the part that struck home to gold-hungry Tyrion -- was that she was only in it for the gold.  But that is not grounds for an annulment either.

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

Tyrion has done some horrible things and his involvement in the gang rape is certainly one of them, but what happened to Tysha both starts and ends with Tywin.

Tyrion, not Tywin, spoke his vows to Tysha.  Only Tyrion, not Tywin, could betray the vows that Tyrion spoke.

I don't recall Tywin ever holding a crossbow to Tyrion's head. 

What then did Tywin hold over Tyrion's head?  Ah yes.  Casterly Rock and all its gold.  Jaime had joined the kingsguard, and Tyrion now hoped he would get Castlerly Rock on Tywin's death.  And, if not Castlerly Rock, at least some lesser castle (Tywin did end up offering him Winterfell).  Tyrion was addicted to wealth and privilege, for which he needs his father's approval.

Eventually Tyrion learns that he is not going to get Casterly Rock.  Winterfell neither.  And - and I suppose you will argue that it is mere coincidence - it is at this time that his wrath over the loss of Tysha revives. 

He realizes he abandoned Tysha for nothing.  All that gold -- the gold he too easily convinced himself Tysha was after (talk about projection!) -- will never be his.  And then Jaime twists the knife by telling him that Tysha really did love him after all.

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

He also forced Tyrion to remarry as well, I don't recall him saying it had to be Sansa, but he did say that Tyrion would marry someone and soon.

I don't recall any crossbows being held to Tyrion's head on that occasion either.

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

I recall Tyrion even offering Sansa an out, by saying something like "I know this sucks and I'm ugly, but my father is forcing this on you; just say the word and I'll end this matter and arrange a more attractive Lannister to marry you".

The correct thing to say is "I cannot marry you because I'm already married to Tysha".  The choice he is offering Sansa is a false choice.  You cannot marry someone who is already married.

That's how bigamy works.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

If the marriage was originally valid, which it was, then there is no choice.  It lasts until death do them part.  There is no divorce.  Nobody can end the marriage. 

Tyrion knew she was a virgin when he married her.  He knew they both said their vows.  No claim was ever made that Tysha had betrayed him in any way.

The lies made no sense, and even if true in some sense (what exactly is a "virgin whore" anyway?), do not change the fact that whores and ex whores can and do marry.  Tyrion married Tysha.  Then abandoned and betrayed her.  Not to mention his participation in the gang rape.  "Whore" or not, she kept her vows and he broke his.

The only part of the lie that made any remote sense -- and apparently the part that struck home to gold-hungry Tyrion -- was that she was only in it for the gold.  But that is not grounds for an annulment either.

Tyrion, not Tywin, spoke his vows to Tysha.  Only Tyrion, not Tywin, could betray the vows that Tyrion spoke.

I don't recall Tywin ever holding a crossbow to Tyrion's head. 

What then did Tywin hold over Tyrion's head?  Ah yes.  Casterly Rock and all its gold.  Jaime had joined the kingsguard, and Tyrion now hoped he would get Castlerly Rock on Tywin's death.  And, if not Castlerly Rock, at least some lesser castle (Tywin did end up offering him Winterfell).  Tyrion was addicted to wealth and privilege, for which he needs his father's approval.

Eventually Tyrion learns that he is not going to get Casterly Rock.  Winterfell neither.  And - and I suppose you will argue that it is mere coincidence - it is at this time that his wrath over the loss of Tysha revives. 

He realizes he abandoned Tysha for nothing.  All that gold -- the gold he too easily convinced himself Tysha was after (talk about projection!) -- will never be his.  And then Jaime twists the knife by telling him that Tysha really did love him after all.

I don't recall any crossbows being held to Tyrion's head on that occasion either.

The correct thing to say is "I cannot marry you because I'm already married to Tysha".  The choice he is offering Sansa is a false choice.  You cannot marry someone who is already married.

That's how bigamy works.

The good old, "he wasn't forced to do it at gun point, so it's fully his fault". The truth is the world is a lot more complex than that and to be honest, that is the sort of think of a child.

The fact of the matter is Tyrion got conned by his father, something Tywin is very good at doing. I think you forget that Tyrion was only a teen when he was conned; heck Jamie wasn't even in the Kingsguard yet.