What if Hoster Tully had been healthy by the time of the novels ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

In the first three books Hoster Tully the Lord of the Riverlands was unable to properly rule and defend his region against the Lannisters' agression, being seriously sick and slowly dying, most likely of cancer as it's said that that he has crabs in his stomach, before dying for good in ASOS. 

But let's imagine that he had been in good health for his age, much like his brother Brynden or Ser Barristan, and was able of leading his family and people. 

How much do you think could have changed with Hoster and his experience and political saviness available for the Stark-Tully side ? Could he have been the perfect political adviser and mind for his grandson Robb, and able to mitigate Robb's inexperience and youth, Edmure's naivety and and Catelyn's less inspired choices ? 

Could he have been able of properly organising the Riverlands' defense against the Lannisters before Robb's arrival ? What could be other consequences of him being healthy ?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Hoster might have had the sense to pump the brakes a bit on that King in the North stuff and kept Robb a little more focused on getting his family back instead of rebelling.  

[Arthur Peres]

Hoster is a very diferent man than Edmure. Hoster is pragmatic and ruthlees. Edmure is naive.

Edmure made several mistakes like spreading his forces to stop the raids of Gregor, than sendin 2 bannerman outnumbered to stop Jaime at the Golden Tooth, than trying himself to face Jaime before his forces were properly assembled in Riverrun.

Hoster would see the problem on spreading his forces and would accept that some loses are inevitable, he would keep his forces concentrated in one place. Instead of marching to face Jaime in the Golden Tooth, Hoster would instead pick a defensive position and repeal the attacks, like happened at the Red Fork during the Dance of Dragons, or how Edmure did at the Fords.

[astarkchoice]

11 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Hoster is a very diferent man than Edmure. Hoster is pragmatic and ruthlees. Edmure is naive.

Edmure made several mistakes like spreading his forces to stop the raids of Gregor, than sendin 2 bannerman outnumbered to stop Jaime at the Golden Tooth, than trying himself to face Jaime before his forces were properly assembled in Riverrun.

Hoster would see the problem on spreading his forces and would accept that some loses are inevitable, he would keep his forces concentrated in one place. Instead of marching to face Jaime in the Golden Tooth, Hoster would instead pick a defensive position and repeal the attacks, like happened at the Red Fork during the Dance of Dragons, or how Edmure did at the Fords.

This

 

We can assume a wily old fox like hoster would also send  word in advance to lord walder to both accept robbs troops in ....... and that hed better be on time for any assembly of riverland forces this time or else he really will be ' the late lord frey'

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

This

 

We can assume a wily old fox like hoster would also send  word in advance to lord walder to both accept robbs troops in ....... and that hed better be on time for any assembly of riverland forces this time or else he really will be ' the late lord frey'

 

At least Hoster wouldn't make himself any delusion about Walder Frey and most of his family's loyalty and reliability, and I think Roose Bolton would have found it much harder to plot and betray with a healthy Hoster around. 

Far more experienced and used to disloyalty and internal sqabbles and political games than his daughter and grandson, Hoster might have been a crucial help into noticing signs of betrayal from Roose and the Freys.

[Arthur Peres]

13 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

At least Hoster wouldn't make himself any delusion about Walder Frey and most of his family's loyalty and reliability, and I think Roose Bolton would have found it much harder to plot and betray with a healthy Hoster around. 

If Hoster can hold a stalemate against the Lannisters, Robb would probably not even split his army. He would just take advantage of his fresh troops and try to use the numbers to crush the Lannisters.

The reason Robb split his army was the need to rescue Riverrun, and he needed Tywin distracted while he did that.

[Corvo the Crow]

Tywin’s ass hanging from a crow cage. For all the talk Tywin really isn’t a good  military commander, from Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion to Riverlands all his victories come from Sucker punch attacks with serious numerical superiority.
 

Even Roose with no accomplishments that we know of was able to force a march and get the drop on him, Tywin’s scouts couldn’t even warn him until Roose was a few hours march away and Roose immediately took the high ground, even with no cavalry of his own and having a few thousand men less than Tywin, Roose could’ve won if not for Gregor’s horse that shouldn’t even exist broke their lines. Tywin also made a bad call and didn’t capitalize on his chance earned victory simply because he learned Jaime was captured. So what if he’s captured? Robb’s men were still days away when Tywin got the word, he should’ve given chase first and retreated second. Not pursuing Roose he allowed himself to be boxed in later. Hoster would’ve bitch slapped the sucker punching Tywin and torn him a new one so he could produce more gold long before Robb ever reached to help.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Roose could’ve won if not for Gregor’s horse that shouldn’t even exist broke their lines.

I thought Roose deliberately threw that battle? Or was that another battle I'm thinking of?

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought Roose deliberately threw that battle? Or was that another battle I'm thinking of?

He sent Glover etc troops to Duskendale.

In this battle it was a win/win for him  either way, GRRM said and this may’ve been an actual win if not for Gregor’s horse that shouldn’t even exist in the first place broke the lines. Giant Macaskill, almost of a height with Gregor was carrying horses on his back, not the other way around.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_MacAskill

[astarkchoice]

9 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

At least Hoster wouldn't make himself any delusion about Walder Frey and most of his family's loyalty and reliability, and I think Roose Bolton would have found it much harder to plot and betray with a healthy Hoster around. 

Far more experienced and used to disloyalty and internal sqabbles and political games than his daughter and grandson, Hoster might have been a crucial help into noticing signs of betrayal from Roose and the Freys.

Yep the critical one probably being to watch for ravens comming from the one castle where a frey is married to old tywins sister...a clear back channel for communication if ever there was one,.def how the red wedding was created.

With their forces combined and not spilt up and the freys forces to join in its very possible they break the invading westerlands forces somewhere near the border prob close again to the golden tooth!  

Tywin will.still be operating under the impression robb is not to be taken too seriously but  that the vale  will take part thus he must smash through and take a strategic position to block forces from the north, vale marching south and also   be possibly close to KL (stannis/renly) ....so harrenhal.was prob always on his mind to take.

 

Now thats not to say he cant punch through,  edmure held him but it was supposedly close and whos to say what having both jamie , strongboar and ser gergor combined in the van slaughtering lords left and right would do to the ordinary infantry sworn to those lords....having some of the greatest  individual warriors in all of westeros on his side all combined could sway it....that  said itd be very bloody and whats left of the riverlands military can retreat to riverrun whereas whats left of his forces must both sieze a fortress soon AND await the northerners+ possibly vale too!

 

More likely with hoster there he choses an alternative plan, like risking  reaching out to the freys right away!

Given brutalizing the riverlands to draw away troops is out he probably wont hire the brave companions (who probably were known for their mutillation before tywin hired them) and instead will hold his nose and go for more traditional free companies and sellsails (like stannis the golden company would probably be his 1st choice but unknown to him theyl refuse any price he offers).

He may even hold his nose and reach out to balon who (prepping for his own invasion)  to his suprise will give him all he asks and much more!

[astarkchoice]

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought Roose deliberately threw that battle? Or was that another battle I'm thinking of?

No

Theres some great write ups on it like here

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/early-evidence-of-roose-boltons-treason/

 

Grmm himself says if the night march hadnt been detected hed have slaughtered the lannisters and been a northern hero! Having a superstar like brynden tully on their side who knew the riverlands and killed many lannister scouts opened the chance  for the ambush as did rooses known rep as a cautious calculating man and not likely to do anythhing so rash

However he didnt get all the scouts thus the lannisters were ready. We see from the link with tyrions pov while roose didnt throw the battle he  clearly made sure ones loyal to him where likely in the reserve ranks and stark loyalists  up front taking the casulties!

[astarkchoice]

30 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He sent Glover etc troops to Duskendale.

In this battle it was a win/win for him  either way, GRRM said and this may’ve been an actual win if not for Gregor’s horse that shouldn’t even exist in the first place broke the lines. Giant Macaskill, almost of a height with Gregor was carrying horses on his back, not the other way around.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_MacAskill

It was a win win for roose as of hed won hed have ended the war and despite loosing he thinned out stark lpyalist ranks and still held command in robbs absence thus could keep doing it!

 

Gregor breaking ranks didnt affect the battle much at all bear in mind he and tyrions  flank was supposed to break!

Their infantry was larger and they had tywin in reserve with mixed cavalry and foot. The idea was tyrion+ gregors van would look weak and break ,robb being green would pour his reserves there and then tywin would  flank him while kevan woild.wheel round some of their.infantry to ensure robb had 0 chance

 

By contrast what actualy happened is somehow  the weaìker flank with ser gregor pushed the ooses reserve rchers) and then the overwhemling advanage in infanty and cavalry (esp once tywin charges). Breaking the nortmen

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought Roose deliberately threw that battle? Or was that another battle I'm thinking of?

Roose definitively could have taken Tywin by surprise, and while he may not have been openly betraying the North he did send the other northern lords forces to the meat grinder while preserving his troops. 

Duskendale on the other hand was complete treachery, he deliberately send the Glover and Karstarks to their death, having warned Tywin with the intent to force Robb to rely on him and go back the Freys.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Gregor breaking ranks didnt affect the battle much at all bear in mind he and tyrions  flank was supposed to break!

Their infantry was larger and they had tywin in reserve with mixed cavalry and foot. The idea was tyrion+ gregors van would look weak and break ,robb being green would pour his reserves there and then tywin would  flank him while kevan woild.wheel round some of their.infantry to ensure robb had 0 chance

 

By contrast what actualy happened is somehow  the weaìker flank with ser gregor pushed the ooses reserve rchers) and then the overwhemling advanage in infanty and cavalry (esp once tywin charges). Breaking the nortmen

Except Tywin’s plan was useless, even if it was Robb we know he’d not fall for it. Plan is so bad it was obvious it was a trap, Tywin had 7.500 or so cavalry in total and sends just 1000 and up the hill? Trap written all over it.

Northmen had more foot and if Robb had stayed, would have more men in total. They had the high ground, Anakin, it was over. They had more infantry than Tywin and held the high ground behind a wall of shields and spears/pikes(GRRM uses them interchangebly when in reality one is several times the length of another) you don’t charge your horses up high ground, especially against a wall of pikes/spear, it’s quite counterproductive, William the Bastard can tell you the same. They only lost because their lines were broken by Gregor’s horse.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Moiraine Sedai]

18 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

In the first three books Hoster Tully the Lord of the Riverlands was unable to properly rule and defend his region against the Lannisters' agression, being seriously sick and slowly dying, most likely of cancer as it's said that that he has crabs in his stomach, before dying for good in ASOS. 

But let's imagine that he had been in good health for his age, much like his brother Brynden or Ser Barristan, and was able of leading his family and people. 

How much do you think could have changed with Hoster and his experience and political saviness available for the Stark-Tully side ? Could he have been the perfect political adviser and mind for his grandson Robb, and able to mitigate Robb's inexperience and youth, Edmure's naivety and and Catelyn's less inspired choices ? 

Could he have been able of properly organising the Riverlands' defense against the Lannisters before Robb's arrival ? What could be other consequences of him being healthy ?

Hoster has the political experience to advise Robb.  But I don’t think he could stop the dishonorable and embarrassing way that Robb carried himself. Cat and Brynden failed to keep Robb from self-destructing. Hoster can’t do better. Robb would break his oath to Walder and gotten the same result.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Moiraine Sedai

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Hoster has the political experience to advise Robb.  But I don’t think he could stop the dishonorable and embarrassing way that Robb carried himself. Cat and Brynden failed to keep Robb from self-destructing. Hoster can’t do better. Robb would break his oath to Walder and gotten the same result.

You are forgetting that had Hoster been well, Robb wouldn't have to deal with those weasels in the first place.  No oath means no broken oath. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Hoster has the political experience to advise Robb.  But I don’t think he could stop the dishonorable and embarrassing way that Robb carried himself. Cat and Brynden failed to keep Robb from self-destructing. Hoster can’t do better. Robb would break his oath to Walder and gotten the same result.

Well Hoster would have warned Robb against trusting and engaging himself with such a opportunistic, self-serving and honorless weasel such as Walder Frey in the first place.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Except Tywin’s plan was useless, even if it was Robb we know he’d not fall for it. Plan is so bad it was obvious it was a trap, Tywin had 7.500 or so cavalry in total and sends just 1000 and up the hill? Trap written all over it.

Northmen had more foot and if Robb had stayed, would have more men in total. They had the high ground, Anakin, it was over. They had more infantry than Tywin and held the high ground behind a wall of shields and spears/pikes(GRRM uses them interchangebly when in reality one is several times the length of another) you don’t charge your horses up high ground, especially against a wall of pikes/spear, it’s quite counterproductive, William the Bastard can tell you the same. They only lost because their lines were broken by Gregor’s horse.

Theres nothing wrong with his plan even if robb doesnt commit to the weaker left the infantry still meet , the north has more foot yes but even with robbs force(6k+ boltons 600 at green fork) they are still outnumbered in heavy horse(7.5k). Its roughly even ..difference will probably still be decided by freaks like ser gregor

[astarkchoice]

46 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Well Hoster would have warned Robb against trusting and engaging himself with such a opportunistic, self-serving and honorless weasel such as Walder Frey in the first place.

Its hard to say

Hoster would have reached out and reminded walder not to cross him but then again as tywin cant use his tactic of drawing away riverlands forces with his pet beast then he probably will reach out to walder as well

 

Then again the tully way seems.to be strength through marriages so if hoster was alive  and healthy edmure might already be pledged to a frey ..it makes sense to stabilize their position as lords of the riverlands

Edited December 3, 2022 by astarkchoice

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Its hard to say

Hoster would have reached out and reminded walder not to cross him but then again as tywin cant use his tactic of drawing away riverlands forces with his pet beast then he probably will reach out to walder as well

 

Then again the tully way seems.to be strength through marriages so if hoster was alive  and healthy edmure might already be pledged to a frey ..it makes sense to stabilize their position as lords of the riverlands

Why aim so low? Edmure can do better, namely Margaery.