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Are Walkers Actually Young Weirwoods?


Phylum of Alexandria

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How are White Walkers made?

[GoT intro content of this post redacted due to stupid rules].

Exactly what the Others have been doing with Craster’s infant sons is not yet clear in the books Some of Craster’s daughter-wives do refer to the White Walkers of the wood as the brothers of Gilly’s newborn baby. And TWOIAF mentions that the CotF engaged in child sacrifice.

Before we get into this topic, let me first remind you of a big theory I’ve been pushing so far: the red-green-blue color trio imagery that’s peppered throughout the story are hints from GRRM that there are three warring magical bloodlines, all brother or sister lines of the same eldritch species. The sigil of House Massey, the colors of the Trident’s three forks, the three colors of the cyvasse board, and most egregiously, the Muppet names found in House Tully. This red-green-blue imagery is telling us that the Dragons, Weirwoods, and Others are all not just linked, but related to one another by blood, albeit with distinct bloodlines and subtle territory-based variations. And they’re at war with one another.

Basically, I think that the Others have their own weirwood things up in the Heart of Winter. And the Weirwoods have their own Walkers: the green men on the Isle of Faces and Garth Greenhand being some examples. As for fire, there’s the God-on-Earth and his more humanoid but still godlike progeny. There are also stories of the Black Goat in the forests of Qohor demanding blood sacrifices. He could be a Black Walker for the Shade trees.

And here’s my current tinfoil theory, as far as how Weirwoods and Walkers are grown: Weirwood seeds or shoots can be planted into living babies in order to create walking hybrid creatures. Those walking hybrid creatures are linked to the Weirwood hivemind and act to serve its interests. However, this is just an early stage of development: eventually the walker grows large and heavy, and its limbs grow into tendrils that start to burrow down into the earth. It thus becomes a new Weirwood tree.

One reason I think that Weirwoods are actually parasitized/hybrid beings is the humanoid face in the Weirwood at the Black Gate. This was no mere carving! It could move and even talk. It exhibited memory and speech comprehension. This likely was a human, or half-human crossbreed. My guess is that all Weirwoods have such faces, underground, and the carved ones perhaps serve as reminders of the faces below.

I think the crucial thing that Weirwoods seek in order to grow and replicate comes naturally to the CotF. Perhaps the same quality that allows the CotF to naturally tap into the Weirwood’s psy frequencies (let’s just call it their psy particles) makes them a valuable resource for Weirwood nutrition and reproduction. And if Weirwoods happened to come to Planetos via panspermia (a plausible mechanic that would explain all of the moon meteor content in the story), perhaps it was that psy particle signal that brought them there in the first place.

So Weirwood and CotF lived together in a somewhat symbiotic relationship. The Weirwood helped them amplify and channel their latent psy abilities, control animals, and enact other magical protections. The CotF provided the Weirwoods with host bodies to plant new Weirwoods, and with blood nourishment once in a while.

But then humans came, and messed everything up. Until the Pact was formed, that is. It seems apparent that greenseeing among humans somehow followed the peaceful co-existence with the CotF. But how? They didn’t have magical blood, and then they did…suddenly.

Obviously, interbreeding with the CotF is the likely answer, and TWOIAF mentions this explicitly. Such interbreeding commenced to introduce the CotF’s psy particles into human bloodlines. This was done to grant godlike powers to humans, but it also meant that humans would be fit to serve as hosts and fodder for the gods.

Thus green-blooded hybrid humans were made. Some of these hybrid infants were used for blood sacrifice nourishment; others were used as weir-seed hosts themselves: green men walkers with human blood. And so the Pact gave way to the Age of Heroes, in which some great and fantastical humanoid beings emerged and did some incredible things.

As they aged, however, I think the earliest heroes eventually began to change again, they took root and grew into Weirwood trees! Deep in the earth their moving humanoid faces can be seen and heard. Perhaps the one that Bran spoke with was in fact his ancestor, Bran the Builder…

Back to Craster’s sons: they all have magical Stark blood that descends from ancient interbreeding with the CotF…but in this case it was CotF who at the time were wedded to colder Weirwoods than the ones we’ve been seeing in the story. Craster's babies were used as living hosts for Weirwood seeds in the blue/ice bloodline, and they grew into hybridized icy weirwood people: the Others. The Others that we see in the story have been created recently, but they share the ancient memories of the Heart of Winter. According to this theory, they would eventually grow into new physical manifestations of that frozen Heart, i.e., into giant tree Weirwood creatures, but I doubt the story itself will witness that. What we could witness, however, is a vision if such a creation, from Bran.

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3 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Yeah yeah yeah, it was a few lines. Now redacted. Mea cupla. How bout we talk about the meat of the post?

I think along similar lines.  I don't think they're young weirwoods but I do think the others are being warged by the spirits in the weirwoods.  Whether those spirits are the many long-dead children of the forest who joined themselves with the trees and became them over time, or something else....not sure.  But I definitely think the Others are akin to an immune system response from the Weirwoods.

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4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

How are White Walkers made?

[GoT intro content of this post redacted due to stupid rules].

Exactly what the Others have been doing with Craster’s infant sons is not yet clear in the books Some of Craster’s daughter-wives do refer to the White Walkers of the wood as the brothers of Gilly’s newborn baby. And TWOIAF mentions that the CotF engaged in child sacrifice.

Before we get into this topic, let me first remind you of a big theory I’ve been pushing so far: the red-green-blue color trio imagery that’s peppered throughout the story are hints from GRRM that there are three warring magical bloodlines, all brother or sister lines of the same eldritch species. The sigil of House Massey, the colors of the Trident’s three forks, the three colors of the cyvasse board, and most egregiously, the Muppet names found in House Tully. This red-green-blue imagery is telling us that the Dragons, Weirwoods, and Others are all not just linked, but related to one another by blood, albeit with distinct bloodlines and subtle territory-based variations. And they’re at war with one another.

Basically, I think that the Others have their own weirwood things up in the Heart of Winter. And the Weirwoods have their own Walkers: the green men on the Isle of Faces and Garth Greenhand being some examples. As for fire, there’s the God-on-Earth and his more humanoid but still godlike progeny. There are also stories of the Black Goat in the forests of Qohor demanding blood sacrifices. He could be a Black Walker for the Shade trees.

And here’s my current tinfoil theory, as far as how Weirwoods and Walkers are grown: Weirwood seeds or shoots can be planted into living babies in order to create walking hybrid creatures. Those walking hybrid creatures are linked to the Weirwood hivemind and act to serve its interests. However, this is just an early stage of development: eventually the walker grows large and heavy, and its limbs grow into tendrils that start to burrow down into the earth. It thus becomes a new Weirwood tree.

One reason I think that Weirwoods are actually parasitized/hybrid beings is the humanoid face in the Weirwood at the Black Gate. This was no mere carving! It could move and even talk. It exhibited memory and speech comprehension. This likely was a human, or half-human crossbreed. My guess is that all Weirwoods have such faces, underground, and the carved ones perhaps serve as reminders of the faces below.

I think the crucial thing that Weirwoods seek in order to grow and replicate comes naturally to the CotF. Perhaps the same quality that allows the CotF to naturally tap into the Weirwood’s psy frequencies (let’s just call it their psy particles) makes them a valuable resource for Weirwood nutrition and reproduction. And if Weirwoods happened to come to Planetos via panspermia (a plausible mechanic that would explain all of the moon meteor content in the story), perhaps it was that psy particle signal that brought them there in the first place.

So Weirwood and CotF lived together in a somewhat symbiotic relationship. The Weirwood helped them amplify and channel their latent psy abilities, control animals, and enact other magical protections. The CotF provided the Weirwoods with host bodies to plant new Weirwoods, and with blood nourishment once in a while.

But then humans came, and messed everything up. Until the Pact was formed, that is. It seems apparent that greenseeing among humans somehow followed the peaceful co-existence with the CotF. But how? They didn’t have magical blood, and then they did…suddenly.

Obviously, interbreeding with the CotF is the likely answer, and TWOIAF mentions this explicitly. Such interbreeding commenced to introduce the CotF’s psy particles into human bloodlines. This was done to grant godlike powers to humans, but it also meant that humans would be fit to serve as hosts and fodder for the gods.

Thus green-blooded hybrid humans were made. Some of these hybrid infants were used for blood sacrifice nourishment; others were used as weir-seed hosts themselves: green men walkers with human blood. And so the Pact gave way to the Age of Heroes, in which some great and fantastical humanoid beings emerged and did some incredible things.

As they aged, however, I think the earliest heroes eventually began to change again, they took root and grew into Weirwood trees! Deep in the earth their moving humanoid faces can be seen and heard. Perhaps the one that Bran spoke with was in fact his ancestor, Bran the Builder…

Back to Craster’s sons: they all have magical Stark blood that descends from ancient interbreeding with the CotF…but in this case it was CotF who at the time were wedded to colder Weirwoods than the ones we’ve been seeing in the story. Craster's babies were used as living hosts for Weirwood seeds in the blue/ice bloodline, and they grew into hybridized icy weirwood people: the Others. The Others that we see in the story have been created recently, but they share the ancient memories of the Heart of Winter. According to this theory, they would eventually grow into new physical manifestations of that frozen Heart, i.e., into giant tree Weirwood creatures, but I doubt the story itself will witness that. What we could witness, however, is a vision if such a creation, from Bran.

We see young weirwoods in some chapters. I think Jon's beyond the wall chapters had some. Brienne also have it

Quote

When Podrick Payne returned, he held Oathkeeper as gingerly as if it were a child. Nimble Dick gave a whistle at the sight of the ornate scabbard with its row of lion's heads, but grew quiet when she drew the blade and tried a cut. Even the sound of it is sharper than an ordinary sword. "With me," she told Crabb. She slipped sideways through the postern, ducking her head to pass beneath the doorway's arch.

The bailey opened up before her, overgrown. To her left was the main gate, and the collapsed shell of what might have been a stable. Saplings were poking out of half the stalls and growing up through the dry brown thatch of its roof. To her right she saw rotted wooden steps descending into the darkness of a dungeon or a root cellar. Where the keep had been was a pile of collapsed stones, overgrown with green and purple moss. The yard was all weeds and pine needles. Soldier pines were everywhere, drawn up in solemn ranks. In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches. Beyond was the emptiness of sky and sea where the wall had collapsed . . .

 

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1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

But I definitely think the Others are akin to an immune system response from the Weirwoods.

I like that notion.

Another metaphor that I think is relevant is chess pieces guarding a king or queen. GRRM used to be a competitive chess player, and chess has deeply informed some of his earlier stories. The most relevant of which is Sandkings, which also has a hive mind species that resembles mobile walkers guarding an immobile queen. Cyvasse obviously has in-game relevance for the game of thrones that humans play, but I think there is a deeper magical dimension to it that will come to the fore in later volumes.

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14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We see young weirwoods in some chapters. I think Jon's beyond the wall chapters had some. Brienne also have it

 

Yes, I thought of that too. But what looks like a young Weirwood sprouting from the ground may look very different if the whole body were visible rather than underground. And it might indeed be young as Weirwoods go, but in the early phase of Stage 2 rather than Stage 1 development.

I'm not completely wedded to the idea of growth stages. I just don't know how else to explain the moving talking human-faced Weirwood at the Black Gate.

My original thought was simply that Weirwoods were created using babies of a certain bloodline, without relating them to the Green Men/Walkers. That would at least explain the Black Gate scene, and it's in line with stuff GRRM has written in past stories, most notably the notion of "final union" in A Song for Lya.

But then what's the point of the tall, horned nature god things? Why the stories of Garth impregnating a bunch of women if we already know that humans and CotF can sometimes interbreed to introduce green-blooded children?

And as for the icy group, why the tale about a man who gives his seed and soul to an Icy Corpse Queen and then gives his children to the Others? Certainly the whole "may the Others take you" phrase doesn't have to mean they take children to create more of themselves. Maybe they are indeed just serving as a queensguard for whatever is in the Heart of Winter, a Weirwood or something like it. But why are the Others referred as the "brothers" of Gilly's son?

I don't really see the functional difference between the CotF and the White Walkers/Green Men, other than the fact that the latter seem to have more literary association with the trees in the text.

The Walker-as-Young-Tree idea takes care of all of these issues, not to mention some sort of explanation for the sudden emergence of larger than life figures in the Age of Heroes.

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5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So something like the knobby white spiders that form part of the life cycle of gnarltrees in Star Wars Legends?

Knobby white spider

Man, I am behind on my Star Wars lore! I guess?

But I am thinking of older GRRM stories, like those found in Dreamsongs.

The psychic parasitic substance merging with its devoted hosts is like something from A Song for Lya, mixed with The Monkey Treatment. And the stages of Walker development is a little like Sandkings...

Spoiler

except the immobile mother brain in that story doesn't undergo metamorphosis--only the mobiles do.

 

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I just had a random thought because you guys mentioned spiders.

We keep hearing about the Others' giant Ice Spiders.  What if the twisted, leg-looking roots of the weirwood trees were the basis for the Ice Spider myths, and over time the Others' communing with them got turned into riding them.

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8 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I just had a random thought because you guys mentioned spiders.

We keep hearing about the Others' giant Ice Spiders.  What if the twisted, leg-looking roots of the weirwood trees were the basis for the Ice Spider myths, and over time the Others' communing with them got turned into riding them.

I'm of the mind that all the kraken talk and Lovecraftian foreshadowing will prove to be about the weirwoods after all. The "giants" awoken from the earth will be these gigantic white tree beings animated by Euron's mass blood sacrifice, which might indeed resemble a kraken depending on the vantage point.

And so perhaps the Ice Spiders could also be "rooted" in the Weirwoods as well, though I confess I would be disappointed if we don't get giant creepy-crawlies of some kind by the story's end. Weirwood-spiders would indeed be quite like the knobby white spiders that Angel Eyes mentioned.

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There are many ideas in the OP, some of which are plausible, others questionable and still others I can't really find any solid evidence for. Some things are difficult to prove or disprove such as the idea of panspermia:

On 12/3/2022 at 5:43 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And if Weirwoods happened to come to Planetos via panspermia (a plausible mechanic that would explain all of the moon meteor content in the story), perhaps it was that psy particle signal that brought them there in the first place.

Is there really moon meteor content in the story? So far we've been given exactly two probable meteors that fell from the sky - the Dayne's fallen star and the BSE's black stone, and we have no idea if these actually stem from a moon. All other "meteors" are symbolic. Symbolic dragons, swords, arrows etc.   Further, the weirwoods existed long before these postulated meteors are supposed to have hit the planet to cause a long night, as well as long before the arrival of the Dayne star. If the Dayne star seeded weirwoods for example, why are there none in Dorne? I can find no evidence for an extraterrestial source of seeding where weirwoods are concerned. 
A fair question though, is why weirwood is linked to the moon. The Moon Door at the Eyrie is of weirwood and depicts a cresent moon, the main door to the House of Black and White as well. Live weirwoods do not grow in these places but the doors in both places lead to death. What do we make of that?

What one can gather from the text is that weirwoods are probably an invasive species. Readers postulate an underground root system or "weirnet" that connects trees and perhaps even spans the continent. There's evidence for that, demonstrated by the Casterly Rock's weirwood that can't get past its rock boundaries:

Quote

There is even a godswood of sorts, though the weirwood that grows there is a queer, twisted thing whose tangled roots have all but filled the cave where it stands, choking out all other growth. (tWoIaF)

This weirwood lives in a cave, possibly without a natural light source. Its growth is concentrated in the root system, which for lack of a means of expansion through the rock, fills the cave itself, to the exclusion of other plant life. Together with other underground weir-roots we've seen, this suggests that given enough space, weirwood roots grow and extend far and wide.

While we cannot completely rule out the idea of stimulating seed growth by means of a sacrifice, vegetative propagation via the root system is likely the more usual means of reproduction. A Pando Organism has been suggested. That would mean the weirnet is for the most part one single organism connected by its roots - a perfect weirnet. This idea of all or most trees actually being one unit is conveyed by the Three Singers at Highgarden which are so intertwined as to give the impression of being one.

There must have been thousands of weirwoods on Westeros before the FM came. Knowing that the CotF were few in number (meaning they had a low rate of reproduction), would they have sacrificed so many individual of their kind to grow ever more trees? Being one single related organism also explains why a greenseer can look through the eyes of one tree and access the rest, though I think there are exceptions to this rule. Not all weirwood trees on the planet are connected, probably because they were planted separately or their access to the net  has been cut off.  Examples would be the specially planted Three Singers, the Casterly Rock weirwood that cannot get past the rock and the Winterfell Weirwood which I suspect can only be accessed by Bran. 

 

On 12/3/2022 at 5:43 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And here’s my current tinfoil theory, as far as how Weirwoods and Walkers are grown: Weirwood seeds or shoots can be planted into living babies in order to create walking hybrid creatures. Those walking hybrid creatures are linked to the Weirwood hivemind and act to serve its interests. However, this is just an early stage of development: eventually the walker grows large and heavy, and its limbs grow into tendrils that start to burrow down into the earth. It thus becomes a new Weirwood tree.

I've given your idea of "walkers" becoming weirwoods a lot of thought but cannot reconcile it with anything we've seen so far. Weirwood seeds planted into babies as a growth starter, maybe, but mobile growth stages that eventually settle down to become trees, hmm, no. I think there is another explanation for the animated face of the Black Gate. More on that in a later post. 

 

On 12/3/2022 at 10:48 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And as for the icy group, why the tale about a man who gives his seed and soul to an Icy Corpse Queen and then gives his children to the Others? Certainly the whole "may the Others take you" phrase doesn't have to mean they take children to create more of themselves. Maybe they are indeed just serving as a queensguard for whatever is in the Heart of Winter, a Weirwood or something like it. But why are the Others referred as the "brothers" of Gilly's son?

 This seems likely to me. If we take the House of the Undying with its shade trees, lack of natural light, the pulsing indigo heart and undying spirits as a template, we can postulate similar conditions at the Heart of Winter. Take the curtain of light that Bran sees for instance. What is its function? Could it be that the Heart of Winter is a place of absolute darkness, a darkness that will spread if that curtain is damaged? The curtain of light is probably a barrier to whatever is behind it, something that "drinks the light," like the tiles roofing the HotU. The so called horn of winter that is thought to bring down the Wall could actually be an instrument capable of damaging the curtain of light.

So what might be lurking in that darkness, the equivalent to the pulsing heart? Perhaps a corrupted heart tree, like the shade trees but also akin to the Casterly Rock example, its roots filling the entire region, unable to penetrate the curtainwall of light? Might there be a greenseer-type entity attached to that monstrous growth? The Great Other, or more likely, the Great Mother? 

George has said the Others can do amazing things with ice. Did he mean the white walkers or the "others?" There must be a distinction between the two terms. The white walkers are probably created by this Great m(O)ther. And this is where I agree with some of your ideas on the "walkers." I do think the white walkers are her mobile units, her queensguard, created by her along with the ice spiders. They would be the equivalent of the warlocks in Qarth. How they are created and whether they are offshoots of the corrupt tree is unclear to me, and I do not think they ever settle to become trees themselves but the Great Mother needs mobile "sons" to do her bidding and they are likely controlled by her as well. If Craster's sons are really turned into more white walkers, they can only come from the same "mold", because they are "twins" to each other. Perhaps they are fashioned after the first white walker or after a real son of the "mother" when she still lived in human form. I bet the Harpy of Slaver's Bay and her "sons," the Sons of the Harpy, are tell a portion of the background story to this Great Other. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Is there really moon meteor content in the story? So far we've been given exactly two probable meteors that fell from the sky - the Dayne's fallen star and the BSE's black stone, and we have no idea if these actually stem from a moon. All other "meteors" are symbolic. Symbolic dragons, swords, arrows etc.

That's fair, it's mostly symbolic wordplay and myths so far. I just think that it's a good explanation for all of that symbolism that's there. Or, something like it.

There are some possible clues for panspermia, though I admit it's tinfoily.  Stories peppered throughout TWOIAF (most notably the Thousand Islands) suggest that such major destruction similar to the Hammer of the Waters has happened several other times around the globe and across time--all involving CotF or related forest/nature people. The Hammer of the Waters being described as a great force dropping down as well as a great flooding event, fits well with the idea of a great pod or boulder being launched and landing with a destructive burst. Also, the positioning of prominent Weirwood sites in hollow hills and on small islands suggests to me that at least some Weirwood "pods" landed from above. My conjecture is that they have a pod launching mechanism for launching/planting new Weirwoods, which perhaps can also be utilized as a weapon to inflict damage.

This might be why GRRM uses the imagery of female trebuchets launching bodies as well as boulders: the Three Whores, and the Six Sisters. And in the instance of the Three Whores, it was three female giants launching boulders and "antler men"--which tends to tie in with Garth and Green Men symbolism.

The God-on-Earth was said to come to earth from the heavens, and he rode in a pearl palanquin carried by his hundred wives. Eventually he rode back into the heavens. To me, this suggests the possibility of panspermia. 

But perhaps an important detail here, is that I think that there are at least three different bloodlines from the same alien species that has come to earth. And the various huge impacts could have been different bloodlines coming in. 

Garth himself was said to plant the Three Singers, three ancient Weirwoods that look like one gigantic tree. To me, all of this suggests the notion that their are distinct magical Weir-bloodlines that people confuse as one.

I think the Others are mobile guardians for some Weir-creature in the Heart of Winter, just as the Green Men are walkers for the Weirwoods we see in the story. Exactly which bloodline would have been responsible for the Long Night cataclysm is not entirely clear, but my guess would be Team Other (though people like Crowfood's Daughter and LmL think it's Team Dragon).

I've toyed with the idea of Weirwoods pulling in astral bodies. GRRM has conflated telekinesis and telepathy before, in Nightflyers. I don't pretend to know the details of how this stuff might work based on the available information. I just see clues possibly pointing to a mechanical explanation that sounds plausible from the perspective of GRRM's past writing, and one that could be potentially thematically satisfying as well.

33 minutes ago, Evolett said:

I've given your idea of "walkers" becoming weirwoods a lot of thought but cannot reconcile it with anything we've seen so far. Weirwood seeds planted into babies as a growth starter, maybe, but mobile growth stages that eventually settle down to become trees, hmm, no. I think there is another explanation for the animated face of the Black Gate. More on that in a later post. 

Yes, I must say that I've been coming to lean against it as well. It certainly doesn't jive with the gendered language that seems to pop up with respect to these Old Ones. Walkers and Green Men and mythic founders are described as male with many wives, and symbolic giants tends to be female.

I just don't know what to make of the Black Gate. It seems like too important a detail to ignore or dismiss as "magic." It seems significant for the deeper story. So I'd love to know your take on it.

I also just don't get a sense of what's the difference between the CotF and the Green Men/Others, functionally speaking. I just  need to think about it some more.

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

If the Dayne star seeded weirwoods for example, why are there none in Dorne? I can find no evidence for an extraterrestial source of seeding where weirwoods are concerned. 

Well, we haven't seen Starfall yet. If we visit there in-story and there's no Weirwood, or any other possible clue relating to Weirwoods, then I agree this would be disconfirmation of the idea.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

This weirwood lives in a cave, possibly without a natural light source. Its growth is concentrated in the root system, which for lack of a means of expansion through the rock, fills the cave itself, to the exclusion of other plant life. Together with other underground weir-roots we've seen, this suggests that given enough space, weirwood roots grow and extend far and wide.

While we cannot completely rule out the idea of stimulating seed growth by means of a sacrifice, vegetative propagation via the root system is likely the more usual means of reproduction. A Pando Organism has been suggested. That would mean the weirnet is for the most part one single organism connected by its roots - a perfect weirnet. This idea of all or most trees actually being one unit is conveyed by the Three Singers at Highgarden which are so intertwined as to give the impression of being one.

Underground does seem to be a crucial space for Weirwoods and their worshipful nature folk like the CotF, and potentially also the Lengii. I like the idea of the pando organism, connecting into some behemoth underground. But because the globe is so enormous, perhaps some seeding to spread the trees around the surface was a more efficient way to cover ground.

As mentioned, I think the specific number three for the Singer is important. I think it's talking about 3 bloodlines related to Weirwoods. This notion is what shaped my perception of the Red-Blue-Green color trio imagery I mentioned in my post above. Particularly the Trident: the map image of the river looks like the Red Fork, Blue Fork, and Green Fork merging into one, not unlike the Singers. Reading Sandkings really shaped this idea in my head, especially as those warring hivemind were color-coded as well.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

The Great Other, or more likely, the Great Mother? 

I would be okay if the Great Mother was a giant weirwood spider beast. 

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

George has said the Others can do amazing things with ice. Did he mean the white walkers or the "others?" There must be a distinction between the two terms.

Can you elaborate on this? You are saying that the white walkers are distinct from the Others, or is it more of a linguistic/symbolic distinction?

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20 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Can you elaborate on this? You are saying that the white walkers are distinct from the Others, or is it more of a linguistic/symbolic distinction?

White walkers and Others are synonymous in the minds of the Westerosi, yet "Others" is a collective term. Any group, race, species that differs markedly from one's own can be labled as "other." Merlings, squishers, selkies, deep ones and the like, all qualify as "others." Even the giants and the CotF can be named as such from a human point  of view. GRRM does not say as much but he has given the icy beings a distinct name - white walkers.

So yes, I think Melisandre's "Great Other," whom she thinks Bran and Bloodraven serve, differs from the white walkers most think of as "Others." Whatever is in the Heart of Winter isn't a white walker but something else, an "Other." And who knows what kind of "others" Euron might conjure up from  the sea?

 

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

The God-on-Earth was said to come to earth from the heavens, and he rode in a pearl palanquin carried by his hundred wives. Eventually he rode back into the heavens. To me, this suggests the possibility of panspermia. 

@Craving Peaches posted something very relevant to this discussion in the Dawn thread:

Quote

I think Dawn could be made of a special magic version of meteoric iron. Back before people could mine/smelt iron properly, the main source, if I recall correctly, was from meteors. So it was much rarer. The Daynes are a first men house, so presumably they were around when everyone was still using Bronze weapons. An iron sword when everyone else was just using bronze would give the wielder an advantage, but because it was extra special it still keeps that edge even against steel weapons.

If you subscribe to the theory that the gemstone spirits carring swords of pale fire in Dany's wake the dragon dream represent her ancestors from the GEotD, then you might also agree that the metal Dawn was made of is the same material those pale swords of fire were crafted from. Indeed, a  tower at Starfall is named "the Palestone Sword."

The so called "pearl palanquin" could be hinting at this heavenly material, in turn suggesting the Empire succeeded in using it to develop technology far superior to any known at the time, hence the prosperous era they lived in. Such a stone will not last forever however and with no earthly replacements available, the Empire would fall into decline. It would also explain why someone would follow the track of a falling star to obtain more of the precious substance. Lastly, it's an explanation for the notion that the first ruler of the Empire descended from the sky. As the discoverer of the stone, he would be inextricably tied to it, to the prosperity it represented - in short, he would become a legendary heavenly figure. 

I'll get back to you on the faces. 

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1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Can you elaborate on this? You are saying that the white walkers are distinct from the Others, or is it more of a linguistic/symbolic distinction?

Before the First Men came to Westeros, the Weirwoods had faces that were carved by the CotF and their greenseers could look and watch through the trees.  Who were/what they watching?

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17 minutes ago, Evolett said:

White walkers and Others are synonymous in the minds of the Westerosi, yet "Others" is a collective term. Any group, race, species that differs markedly from one's own can be labled as "other." Merlings, squishers, selkies, deep ones and the like, all qualify as "others." Even the giants and the CotF can be named as such from a human point  of view. GRRM does not say as much but he has given the icy beings a distinct name - white walkers.

So yes, I think Melisandre's "Great Other," whom she thinks Bran and Bloodraven serve, differs from the white walkers most think of as "Others." Whatever is in the Heart of Winter isn't a white walker but something else, an "Other." And who knows what kind of "others" Euron might conjure up from  the sea?

That's interesting. Certainly possible, though I don't think the Heart of Winter will house the mother of all strange hybrid beasts. But I like the general logic.

 

18 minutes ago, Evolett said:

If you subscribe to the theory that the gemstone spirits carring swords of pale fire in Dany's wake the dragon dream represent her ancestors from the GEotD, then you might also agree that the metal Dawn was made of is the same material those pale swords of fire were crafted from. Indeed, a  tower at Starfall is named "the Palestone Sword."

The so called "pearl palanquin" could be hinting at this heavenly material, in turn suggesting the Empire succeeded in using it to develop technology far superior to any known at the time, hence the prosperous era they lived in. Such a stone will not last forever however and with no earthly replacements available, the Empire would fall into decline. It would also explain why someone would follow the track of a falling star to obtain more of the precious substance. Lastly, it's an explanation for the notion that the first ruler of the Empire descended from the sky. As the discoverer of the stone, he would be inextricably tied to it, to the prosperity it represented - in short, he would become a legendary heavenly figure. 

I buy that. I just don't think it has to be mutually exclusive. The stories often simplify and obfuscate. Maybe stone from the pod was indeed used to make magic white swords. Similarly, if Azor Ahai indeed was the BSE, maybe stone from the black pod that came down near Asshai was used to make Lightbringer and other dark swords that drank the light. But that would be after whatever was in the pod had escaped into the depths of the earth.

 

21 minutes ago, Evolett said:

And who knows what kind of "others" Euron might conjure up from  the sea?

I'm actually with Crowfood's Daughter here. She thinks the "kraken" will be an enormous Weirwood juiced up by blood sacrifice, making explicit in-story how this ancient being that was labeled "tree" was labeled by a different community as "the Drowned God."

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Animated weirwood faces:

On 12/3/2022 at 5:43 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

One reason I think that Weirwoods are actually parasitized/hybrid beings is the humanoid face in the Weirwood at the Black Gate. This was no mere carving! It could move and even talk. It exhibited memory and speech comprehension. This likely was a human, or half-human crossbreed.

 

The animated weirwood faces are an example of the magic of shape-changing, though skinchanging might be a prerequisite. We are familiar with this because our knowledge of the faceless men provides us with ample evidence of it. The difference is that a face carved into tree bark serves as the face to be changed instead of a human face. The mechanics probably differ but the principle is the same.

When Arya dons her first face, a blood sacrifice accompanies it, her own blood, flowing from a cut on her forehead. This also softens up the leathery face. She is immediately psychically tuned into the emotions felt by the one-time owner of the face, sees the girl’s brutal father and feels the pain he’s inflicting. Arya is accessing the dead girl’s memories here. Now we compare this to Theon seeing Bran in the Winterfell weirwood's face:

 

Quote

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. “.?.?.?Bran,” the tree murmured. They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran’s face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran’s ghost, he thought, but that was madness.

 

Bran entering the consciousness of the weirwood, accessing its memories and his face manifesting within its carved face is very similar to Arya’s experience. Whether a blood sacrifice is necessary for this special effect is unclear. Unfortunately, we were not party to the activities in Bran’s cave at this particular time.
I do not think it is necessary however. A “softening” of the bark to render it pliable for animation is probably taken care of by the trademark tree-sap that flows from the eyes and mouth of the carving. Note: in the quote, Bran’s eyes, red and sad are highlighted.

If my hypothesis is correct, then any greenseer inhabiting a tree should be able to manifest his face in any tree he happens to be looking through.

This idea is further supported by information released in the Arianne II chapter:

Spoiler

And all at once she found herself in another cavern, five times as big as the last one, surrounded by a forest of stone columns. Daemon Sand moved to her side and raised his torch. “Look how the stone’s been shaped,” he said. “Those columns, and the wall there. See them?”

“Faces,” said Arianne. So many sad eyes, staring.

“This place belonged to the children of the forest.” “A thousand years ago.”

--------------------------------------

Faces carved into stone columns, carved into the wall of the cave. In a cave of the CotF.
If that doesn’t remind of the HoBaW, I don’t know what does.

 

 

The weirwood moon-doors at the HoBaW also add to solving the mystery. The moon has one trademark – just like the god of many faces, the moon has many faces, its phases, appearing in the sky with a different face each night. And like the moon, the weirwood too can have many faces, differing according to who is looking through it.  

The face at the Black Gate mirrors the black door half at the HoBaW with the white moon face in the middle. The Black Gate’s weirwood face gives off a moon-like glow and it expresses emotion by crying. As we see with both Bran and the Gate, the hidden greenseer can be heard.  Like Arya’s donned face, the weirwood face is fully functional.

 

To conclude, I would not attribute this to a human-tree-hybrid condition. It's a case of the face of a greenseer manifesting within the bark of the tree. 

 

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