Are Walkers Actually Young Weirwoods?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Trees in cold/low nutrient climates also tend to be rather stunted. Beyond the Wall, being closer to the 'North Pole' equivalent, must see less sunlight than further south. So I think the Weirwoods could possibly have an alternative source of 'food' besides soil nutrients and photosynthesis. Given that their leaves are red all seasons round, they seem to lack chlorophyll.

Easy fix. I don't think they're actually trees!

Or, if that sounds strange, let's at least say that "magic" trees probably operate quite differently than any other tree in the story.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Easy fix. I don't think they're actually trees!

Or, if that sounds strange, let's at least say that "magic" trees probably operate quite differently than any other tree in the story.

Interesting, but I would think they would still need some sort of energy source, perhaps they are 'powered' by the spirits of previous Greenseers?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Interesting, but I would think they would still need some sort of energy source, perhaps they are 'powered' by the spirits of previous Greenseers?

Well, it could be that's what Craster's kids are used for. We know that weirwoods like their blood beverages. I dunno though.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, it could be that's what Craster's kids are used for. We know that weirwoods like their blood beverages. I dunno though.

I thought Craster's sons were being given to the Others to make more others. But perhaps the Weirwoods are a part of this process.

There was that discussion about parasites. Maybe the Weirwoods are a tree with something else living inside of it, which takes in the blood and coverts it into something the plant part can use. Though this would be mutualism rather than parasitism.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I thought Craster's sons were being given to the Others to make more others. But perhaps the Weirwoods are a part of this process.

There was that discussion about parasites. Maybe the Weirwoods are a tree with something else living inside of it, which takes in the blood and coverts it into something the plant part can use. Though this would be mutualism rather than parasitism.

Well, I am leaning toward the making more Others option, given the available evidence, but it's not a lot to go on.

I can't rule out the idea of the Heart of Winter feeding on their blood. Given that the Others were not snatching Night's Watchmen right and left, it seems the blood needs to come from infants, or maybe descendants of the Kings of Winter (Craster mentioned possibly being a Stark), or specifically infants of Winter King stock.

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There was that discussion about parasites. Maybe the Weirwoods are a tree with something else living inside of it, which takes in the blood and coverts it into something the plant part can use. Though this would be mutualism rather than parasitism.

It's possible, and I'm toying with ideas in that lane. I think whether it's symbiotic vs parasitic may be in the eye of the beholder, as such relationships certainly were in GRRM's other stories like A Song for Lya and And Seven Times Never Kill Man.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I think whether it's symbiotic vs parasitic

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Parasitism, Commensalism and Mutualism, (as well as neutralism, amensalism and competition), all fall under the heading of symbiosis, so if symbiosis is what the author is going for, there are plenty of options available.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Parasitism, Commensalism and Mutualism, (as well as neutralism, amensalism and competition), all fall under the heading of symbiosis, so if symbiosis is what the author is going for, there are plenty of options available.

Oh, I'm not an expert there. I might be misusing the term.

Also, if the blood is not food for what's in the Heart of Winter, we've already been assuming some state of dormancy for Team Cold. And we already know of a magical tree system whose corrupted blue heart was close to death, but still alive.

[Evolett]

45 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And we already know of a magical tree system whose corrupted blue heart was close to death, but still alive.

But the corrupted heart in the HotU needed Dany's life fires, not blood, though all that sucking and biting conjours up vampirism. Whether life-fires = soul is a good question. It was definitely a depleting process because Dany had absolutely no energy while they were at it, she was incapable of moving or even resisting:

Quote

They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them … 

Mel says this to Davos when she suggests creating a shadow-baby with him:

Quote

Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though … a man whose flames still burn hot and high … if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make …” “… a horror.” Davos retreated from her.

 

So when Mel takes part of Stannis soul, she takes his life-fire. If this process is carried out too often, the victim begins to grow gaunt, it's consuming but not necessarily death bringing the first time round. 

The more I think about it, the less I think the white walkers actually do anything with the babies themselves. Perhaps they only collect the babies and pass them on to the entity in the Heart of Winter - basically what the warlocks do with Dany. The entity cannot leave the Heart itself, contained by the curtain of light is my guess, but the white walkers can go back and forth. If what's going on there is similar to the HotU, then the entity might need the life fires of the babies to keep itself going. 

Thinking of the state Drogo was in after Mirri's ritual - that may indicate a similar concept - alive, but without his life fires. So perhaps we can apply this to the NKs NQ. She is described as a "corpse bride," and as "cold as ice." I don't think she was an icy female white walker. She was most likely dead or in a state similar to Drogo. If NK slept with her despite her condition and gave her part of his soul, or life-fires, that would have revived her. Recall also that Dany tries to make love to Drogo, hoping to revive him but he doesn't respond.

That scene prompted me to think that sexual magic is another means of raising the dead or catatonic - Patchface also gives seed in exchange for being taught how to breathe by a mermaid, according to the fisherfolk. Now a fit and healthy man would have no problem with an erection to be able to go ahead with the act, but in the case of a woman like Dany trying to raise a catatonic or dead man by this method, that would be quite impossible. Not exactly pleasant thoughts but hey, we're trying to solve a mystery here. And we do have the one solid example of the first Reek violating a dead woman. 

The Undying had been waiting for Dany for centuries, expressly to feed on her life it seems, implying that only she would do, only a particular bloodline would do. The same logic could apply to Craster's sons. 

 

Edit: an additional thought: Gilly says her babe "stinks of life"

Quote

“He’s come for the babe,” Gilly wept. “He smells him. A babe fresh-born stinks o’ life. He’s come for the life.” 

Could be a hint at what I've come up with above. 

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Don't we also hear someone speaking about trying to get a weirwood to take root or plant one? This would imply that there are already young weirwoods in terms of seeds or saplings.

Aspen trees propagate both through their roots and through seeds, seems weirwoods can do the same.  Wiki sez originally Weirwoods grew over all of Westeros, so they can grow in warmer climates, but mostly grow in colder climates due to cutting by the First Men.

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I also think it's likely that they need human babies to make more Others and not just wights.

I'm beginning to think so too, also, are white walkers and Others the same?  White walkers are called Others, but what else is out there?

3 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Though maybe the 'Great Other', if it exists in some shape or form, could be a big weirwood like thing.

I think we shall see something in the Heart of Winter that's functionally quite weirwood-like. Maybe quite similar in appearance as well, but not necessarily.

Could be.

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can't rule out the idea of the Heart of Winter feeding on their blood. Given that the Others were not snatching Night's Watchmen right and left, it seems the blood needs to come from infants, or maybe descendants of the Kings of Winter (Craster mentioned possibly being a Stark), or specifically infants of Winter King stock

Interesting thought.

 

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

The Undying had been waiting for Dany for centuries, expressly to feed on her life it seems, implying that only she would do, only a particular bloodline would do. The same logic could apply to Craster's sons. 

Yes!  And both for Targs and Craster, they are born of incest, the genetics are concentrated.  The Targaryen side concentrates fire, and the Craster side concentrates cold!

Good work team!

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Also, if the blood is not food for what's in the Heart of Winter, we've already been assuming some state of dormancy for Team Cold. And we already know of a magical tree system whose corrupted blue heart was close to death, but still alive.

I wonder if the cold has kept the 'Heart of Winter' comparatively pure compared to the corrupted blue heart. Diseases and parasitism spread more easily in warm climates, or so I've read. I don't think the shade of the evening heart is infected with a parasite, could it be diseased?

[Evolett]

8 hours ago, LongRider said:

Yes!  And both for Targs and Craster, they are born of incest, the genetics are concentrated.  The Targaryen side concentrates fire, and the Craster side concentrates cold!

Good work team!

I'm sure we're on the right track

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

11 hours ago, Evolett said:

The more I think about it, the less I think the white walkers actually do anything with the babies themselves. Perhaps they only collect the babies and pass them on to the entity in the Heart of Winter - basically what the warlocks do with Dany. The entity cannot leave the Heart itself, contained by the curtain of light is my guess, but the white walkers can go back and forth. If what's going on there is similar to the HotU, then the entity might need the life fires of the babies to keep itself going.

Could be! I have been ignoring the shadow/fire aspect of it all on this thread. The Undying also have strong similarities to Bloodraven in the Weirwood.

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers." 

For all we know, the White Walkers are tending to the babies in the Heart of Winter, feeding them...something, just as the CotF are doing with Bran. And yet as the magic of the Heart Tree is accessed, the life fire is slowly drained. 

Wouldn't Craster's babies freeze to death in the Heart of Winter? Maybe that's part of why the special blood is needed. Targaryens can tolerate much more heat than other people. Maybe babies with strong ice-blood can be taken into the Lands of Always Winter without harm.

Though, "without harm" is certainly not guaranteed. Aerea Targaryen showed how much heat her fire-blooded body could tolerate and still function, but she was in agony, and ultimately died a ghastly death as the host of fire wyrm parasites. But I agree that so far the magical trees seem to suck away at people's life energies.

So instead of water the trees drink blood, and instead of sunlight they take in souls. Fantasy as gothic horror. I love it.

[LongRider]

A random thought, Jon switched the babies and sent the one with 'kings blood', according to Mel anyway, far away.  The Craster baby is still at the Wall. GRRM, that sly fox, distracted us with a shiny object, baby with king's blood, meanwhile, the babe with the blood that attracts...something, is still at Castle Black and is known as Monster.

@Phylum of Alexandria has your reading of GRRM's other novels have a situation like this?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

33 minutes ago, LongRider said:

A random thought, Jon switched the babies and sent the one with 'kings blood', according to Mel anyway, far away.  The Craster baby is still at the Wall. GRRM, that sly fox, distracted us with a shiny object, baby with king's blood, meanwhile, the babe with the blood that attracts...something, is still at Castle Black and is known as Monster.

@Phylum of Alexandria has your reading of GRRM's other novels have a situation like this?

Wow, yeah, I didn't think of that! Saving one baby from the fire mage, but leaving the other for the ice demons!

Mel's whole concept of king's blood is probably a distortion of God-King blood, magical blood. Which would lend some major irony to the whole situation.

GRRM definitely loves his sleights of hands, his distractions, and his big reveals. We already knew that from ASOIAF, but Dying of the Light is another huge example. Fevre Dream too, but to a smaller extent.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

On 12/10/2022 at 1:18 PM, Evolett said:

To conclude, I would not attribute this to a human-tree-hybrid condition. It's a case of the face of a greenseer manifesting within the bark of the tree. 

I've been thinking about this topic of the Black Gate.

One thing I will say, reading the passage again, it does sound more like a door made out of weirwood, with a detailed face carved onto it, rather than the trunk of a weirwood tree with the typical carvings and sap. Maybe I was partially influenced by the artwork I've seen of the Black Gate, but I was thinking of it as a real face on a gigantic weirwood tree. If it is indeed just a door made out of weirwood, then the idea that host bodies are needed to grow weirwoods pretty much vanishes.

Still, while I like the comparisons you've made with the BG and Bran's face in the weirwood, I am not quite sure this scene quite fits such a mechanic. For instance, the BG face did not change in any way, save for its starting to move. If it's a greenseer who is animating the gate, then they're stuck there somehow. Their face is the impossibly old withered face of the gate. And instead of any reference to sap, we get the puzzling detail of salt water dripping from the upper lip.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Faceless Men use magic that is somehow linked to the weirwoods. Crowfood's Daughter has pointed out how their rituals (and those of other cultures, such as the Lorathi mazes) resemble third-eye-openings. But how they connect...I'm more puzzled than ever!

[Evolett]

On 12/16/2022 at 8:12 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

One thing I will say, reading the passage again, it does sound more like a door made out of weirwood, with a detailed face carved onto it, rather than the trunk of a weirwood tree with the typical carvings and sap.

The text is somewhat ambiguous. On the one hand it starts off with "It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it," sounding like an actual tree and on the other hand it's a door. Before that Sam says "The Black Gate is cold, and the other side of the Wall is even colder," which could allude to the gate being a tunnel (if it's cold inside) and that would fit with it being an actual tree with a door and hollow passage within. Hard to say. 

If the Gate is a door / slab of weirwood, that might explain the absence of red sap. The salt water really is a mystery. 

On 12/16/2022 at 8:12 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

For instance, the BG face did not change in any way, save for its starting to move.

I have to ask by what you mean by "the face did not change in any way." Its eyes were closed before and it opened them as well as opening its mouth very wide to let the party through. I would call that a change. It was also noted that the eyes were blind. The face could not see. I wonder if this means the ancient person tied to this tree or door is no greenseer or one who has lost the ability to see. Most likely its sole purpose is to guard  the entrance. 

Something interesting: the next time the Gate is mentioned, Sam tells Stannis about it. Right after that, Maester Aemon asks to see Lightbringer. His wish is commented thus:

Quote

“You want to see Lightbringer? A blind man?”
“Sam shall be my eyes.”

Maester Aemon cannot see the sword but afterwards he asks if it gave off heat. Perhaps this hints that not being able to see, the Black Gate responds to body-heat, which kind of makes sense since its a ward against wights and Others who exude cold. 

 

"Ice Blood"

On 12/13/2022 at 4:09 AM, LongRider said:

Yes!  And both for Targs and Craster, they are born of incest, the genetics are concentrated.  The Targaryen side concentrates fire, and the Craster side concentrates cold!

 

On 12/13/2022 at 1:50 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Wouldn't Craster's babies freeze to death in the Heart of Winter? Maybe that's part of why the special blood is needed. Targaryens can tolerate much more heat than other people. Maybe babies with strong ice-blood can be taken into the Lands of Always Winter without harm.

This is most likely the case. Besides the Targs, there is one more mention of the phenomenon of pure breeding in relation to an element: The Pureborn of Qarth are said to have "water" in their veins." In Craster's case, I think this "ice trait" is symbolized by the Gillyflower that Gilly is named after. The Gillyflower is something of a collective term for a group of flowers that include wallflowers. The Wall is of ice of course and our little Monster is located precisely there. That Dany sees a vision of a blue flower growing in a chink in the Wall also ties into this symbolism. 

I applied this logic to Jon Snow in a post I wrote about the significance of blue winter roses some years ago. Blue winter roses are rare and precious, growing only in the glass gardens of Winterfell. They are "winter roses" and as "blue as frost," yet they grow in a hot environment. In a nutshell, my conclusion is that they represent frozen fire. Jon is frozen fire made flesh, making him able to withstand the Others, perhaps even as deadly to them as regular obsidian is. I think his death is necessary to activate the "frozen" aspect. Why? Because if my inferences are correct, then Jon finding the cash of buried obsidian is a clue. 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

The text is somewhat ambiguous. On the one hand it starts off with "It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it," sounding like an actual tree and on the other hand it's a door.

I think when I was reading it before, I assumed it said "It was a white weirwood," which is partially why my imagination went where it went. But "it was white weirwood", without the "a," sounds to me like "it was fashioned from white weirwood." Like, it's just a gate made out of weirwood.

And if that's the case, then this confirms the rumors about the bannisters in Whitewalls enabling Bloodraven's psychic espionage, and is the best evidence we have that weirwood presumed to be dead is very much active.

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

I have to ask by what you mean by "the face did not change in any way."

You had previously quoted a section with Bran's face manifesting onto the carved weirwood face near Theon. That doesn't seem to be happening here. I don't think random greenseers can spy into this area. If there is a greenseer animating the Black Gate's face, then it's confined to the weirwood of this gate.

The fact that Bran describes the face as being impossibly old maybe support this idea, that it's inhabited by a greenseer growing into a living corpse like Bloodraven. In any event, I'm now pretty convinced it's not a giant weirwood tree with a real face...

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

In a nutshell, my conclusion is that they represent frozen fire.

Nice! I had been thinking about obsidian's role as frozen fire somehow relating to the song of ice and fire, but I didn't take it to any useful plot mechanics. But you're right! Dragons are living fire that can't survive the extreme cold; obsidian is frozen fire, and thus can be taken into the Land of Always Winter. And yes, it's likely that such a quality will be revealed for Jon as well.

[Ring3r]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:45 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Trees in cold/low nutrient climates also tend to be rather stunted. Beyond the Wall, being closer to the 'North Pole' equivalent, must see less sunlight than further south. So I think the Weirwoods could possibly have an alternative source of 'food' besides soil nutrients and photosynthesis. Given that their leaves are red all seasons round, they seem to lack chlorophyll.

Actually, that's not entirely right.  Trees in cold climates tend to grow more slowly, but they still get extremely large.

[Ring3r]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:07 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I thought Craster's sons were being given to the Others to make more others. But perhaps the Weirwoods are a part of this process.

There was that discussion about parasites. Maybe the Weirwoods are a tree with something else living inside of it, which takes in the blood and coverts it into something the plant part can use. Though this would be mutualism rather than parasitism.

We've actually got zero evidence of what Craster's sons were used for.  The TV show showed the baby's eyes turning blue but that is not canon to the books and it was never touched on again.

I think it's more likely that they are blood sacrifices, since that seems to be the primary way that magic functions in GRRM's world.

I think there's a female Other out there...maybe only one.  Maybe the original......the Amethyst empress, or Nissa Nissa (or both, since I think they're the same person). 

[Craving Peaches]

11 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Actually, that's not entirely right.  Trees in cold climates tend to grow more slowly, but they still get extremely large.

I mean like in the tundra. No/very small trees.