Maegor the Cruel: Absolute Evil, or Misrepresented Monarch?

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

And they massacred the Children to near extinction

So did the First Men.

27 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

The Hungry Wolf woke and made them suffer for it.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

So did the First Men.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

But it ends the possibility of more wrongs against your people from a people shown to be prone to violence and religious extremism 

[Craving Peaches]

35 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

But it ends the possibility of more wrongs against your people from a people shown to be prone to violence and religious extremism 

What about all the Andals who weren't involved? I really don't think you can just generalise like that. The Andals weren't prone to violence any more than the First Men or anyone else save the Naathi and Lhazareen.

This argument, that it is okay to exterminate all members of one religious or ethnic group because you view them as 'prone to violence and religious extremism', could be used to justify all sorts of brutality, slaughter and genocide. And has been.

Do you think the Ironborn should be wiped out? They seem 'prone to violence and religious extremism'. Should they be cut down to the last man, woman and child?

Edited December 6, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[James Arryn]

Where does the Academic Stablishment meet to decide on their agenda re: history and…have you met academics? Getting them to all agree on something is not a task I would wish on my worst enemy. The Church IS an actual organization with an actual hierarchy and agenda who regularly discussed same, and yes, historical figures portrayal often reflected how they got along with the church…to a point. Going back further, the same could be said about Roman Emperors and the Senate, another actual organization. In fact Maegor might be a nod to Caligula, so possibly GRRM is amongst those who believe Caligula has been misrepresented. That’s all feasible. 
 

The Academic Stablishment, OTOH, is a fantasy. It’s comprised of countless people with countless different perspectives and agendas and zero universal structure or hierarchy…they are not remotely the same thing, nor do they aspire to the same things, nor are they capable of the same things. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how academia works, sounds like a very right-wing pizza plot. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by James Arryn

[Alden Rothack]

37 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do you think the Ironborn should be wiped out? They seem 'prone to violence and religious extremism'. Should they be cut down to the last man, woman and child?

Given that Black Harren was a religious moderate i'd say the ironborn are just crazy

Forced conversion would have killed fewer people than letting them ravage the continent for thousands of years and you could ban thralldom at the same time

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

47 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What about all the Andals who weren't involved? I really don't think you can just generalise like that. The Andals weren't prone to violence any more than the First Men or anyone else save the Naathi and Lhazareen.

This argument, that it is okay to exterminate all members of one religious or ethnic group because you view them as 'prone to violence and religious extremism', could be used to justify all sorts of brutality, slaughter and genocide. And has been.

Do you think the Ironborn should be wiped out? They seem 'prone to violence and religious extremism'. Should they be cut down to the last man, woman and child?

As cool as the Ironborn are, yeah they’d kinda deserve it. Them and the Dothraki’s cultures are based on genocide, war, and thievery. They add nothing but death and misery to the world and haven’t changed for hundreds and thousands of years. If the Free Cities all teamed up to burn Vaes Dothrak and destroy the Khalasars that’d be justified. Same if the 6 Kingdoms decided to go to the Iron Islands and slaughter all the noble families and put the islands under their rule. The Ironborn have had thousands of years to change and they haven’t.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

As cool as the Ironborn are, yeah they’d kinda deserve it. Them and the Dothraki’s cultures are based on genocide, war, and thievery. They add nothing but death and misery to the world and haven’t changed for hundreds and thousands of years. If the Free Cities all teamed up to burn Vaes Dothrak and destroy the Khalasars that’d be justified. Same if the 6 Kingdoms decided to go to the Iron Islands and slaughter all the noble families and put the islands under their rule. The Ironborn have had thousands of years to change and they haven’t.

Even though there are Ironborn who want to reform, and Ironborn who don't participate in raiding, and Ironborn who don't follow the Drowned God?

Even the Dothraki are able to reform, or at least stop harming innocents, if you go by the influence Daenerys has on some of them.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Even though there are Ironborn who want to reform, and Ironborn who don't participate in raiding, and Ironborn who don't follow the Drowned God?

Even the Dothraki are able to reform, or at least stop harming innocents, if you go by the influence Daenerys has on some of them.

If we are talking right now in the story then yeah there are. But I was speaking broadly. Like if During the GJ Rebellion before the story, Robert and his forces went from island to island wiping out the lords and their families I wouldn’t see anything wrong with it. The Ironborn have been irredeemable scum for their entire history. Given chance after chance and they just come back and murder and steal. Westeros would 100% be better off if Aegon and his sisters burned the Iron Islands to cinders.

 

the Dothraki are a lot younger than the Ironborn and honestly deserve more of a chance to change. But up until what Daenerys seemingly will do in the next book they’ve never once seemed likely to change.

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

If we are talking right now in the story then yeah there are. But I was speaking broadly. Like if During the GJ Rebellion before the story, Robert and his forces went from island to island wiping out the lords and their families I wouldn’t see anything wrong with it. The Ironborn have been irredeemable scum for their entire history. Given chance after chance and they just come back and murder and steal. Westeros would 100% be better off if Aegon and his sisters burned the Iron Islands to cinders.

 

the Dothraki are a lot younger than the Ironborn and honestly deserve more of a chance to change. But up until what Daenerys seemingly will do in the next book they’ve never once seemed likely to change.

the dragons wiping everyone out would be unjustified and even some of the nobles like Harlaw and Botley are no worse than elsewhere

[Craving Peaches]

41 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Like if During the GJ Rebellion before the story, Robert and his forces went from island to island wiping out the lords and their families I wouldn’t see anything wrong with it.

I certainly would. There are always innocents. And how do you know there weren't Ironborn at that time who wanted to reform and didn't participate in raiding? Only a few generations before Harren, the Ironborn were engaged in commerce and trading. Are newborn babies being killed too? They are part of the lords' families. Their wives too? All the non-fighting men? Those who have surrendered?

44 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

The Ironborn have been irredeemable scum for their entire history. Given chance after chance and they just come back and murder and steal.

This is not true as seen with lords like Qhorwyn the Cunning. Under him the ironborn engaged on merchant ventures.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Maegor The Hero fought the militants and saved Westeros from the terrible fate of being ruled by religion.  

[Alden Rothack]

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Maegor The Hero fought the militants and saved Westeros from the terrible fate of being ruled by religion.  

Hero might be stretching it by the modern rather than ancient greek meaning (he would have fit rigght in among Heracles, Agaememnon and Achilles) but he definitely did a good thing disarming the faith, religious wars are particularly nasty