Kevan Lannister was NOT a "good man."

[astarkchoice]

13 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

The kind of strength that results in the extermination of an entire House for the sake of pride is a very fragile type of strength. Tywin would never inspire a "the North Remembers" kind of loyalty like Ned has done. Instead, his hold on the realm fell to pieces the instant he did.

True it came.from a place of weakness that his father left him but people feared  him for decades....if fell to pieces as he was a terrible father and unable to recognise that his true heir  tyrion could have easily kept his house strong and feared

[Alden Rothack]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

True it came.from a place of weakness that his father left him but people feared  him for decades....if fell to pieces as he was a terrible father and unable to recognise that his true heir  tyrion could have easily kept his house strong and feared

Yes, even if he had managed to get Jaime out of the kingsguard without being sent to the wall which he could if jame had told the truth after the sack Tyrion is still a better choice because hes much smarter and not the kingslayer

[Nathan Stark]

32 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

To be fair we cant judge him by modern standards.

The rape of a common woman (tryions 1st wife) will be as common as rain in a medieval setting plus he would.share tywins view that tyrion cant be allowed to be a source of mockery for the family as it invites atttacks.

The 'rains of castermere' was unusualy brutal but weakness breed dangers , fear and strength are needed for a great family to stay safe so a rival had to be put down violently

Yes we can. The books were written by a modern author, for a modern audience. Saying "we can't judge these fantasy characters by modern standards" has always been a fairly weak copout in my opinion.

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yes we can. The books were written by a modern author, for a modern audience. Saying "we can't judge these fantasy characters by modern standards" has always been a fairly weak copout in my opinion.

Faif enough by modern standards almost all.the characters are pretty bad

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Yes, even if he had managed to get Jaime out of the kingsguard without being sent to the wall which he could if jame had told the truth after the sack Tyrion is still a better choice because hes much smarter and not the kingslayer

Yeah to be fair jamie actualy begins to use his brain more after his hands gone  and hes no longer arguably westeros premier warrior rearranging the kingsguard , the riverlands siege and secret training etc but tyrion is still the better heir

 

Genna lannister is 100% right about tyrion and tywin

Edited December 5, 2022 by astarkchoice

[Alden Rothack]

5 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Faif enough by modern standards almost all.the characters are pretty bad

I make this point regularly when discussing my original work however Tywin is doing a horrible job of what he wants to achieve by being excessively cruel even by westerosi standards

[Phylum of Alexandria]

27 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

This despite the fact that the Starks were extremely brutal and exterminateed entire families when they felt they had to

I assume you are talking about the ancient "Kings of Winter" era of Stark history?

[astarkchoice]

11 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I make this point regularly when discussing my original work however Tywin is doing a horrible job of what he wants to achieve by being excessively cruel even by westerosi standards

Being cruel hasnt held him back for his family goals, they went from laughing stock to a feared if disliked  house .... its being an idiot when it comes to his kids that ruins his legacy and leaves him bolted to a toilet wall

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

 

I see @Nevets's argument as a subcategory of the "Kevan was just following orders" defense. If Kevan were as weak willed as this argument suggests, it isn't obvious in the text. Kevan is certainly a good soldier who follows orders without question, but plenty of good soldiers, both in universe and in real life do the same without also taking part in atrocities. That's why "I was just following orders" doesn't hold up in a court of law. Kevan by all indications knew exactly what following his orders entailed, and he still did everything he could to carry out his brother's wishes. If he were weak willed like Pycelle, that would have been obvious on the page. Instead, Kevan wholeheartedly defends his brother to Tyrion, and in his pov epilogue, he stands up to Mace Tyrell. Even Varys recognises that Kevan is no pushover, because he murders Kevan in order to ensure chaos and instability, which Kevan presumably would have prevented had he lived. A weak willed man would not have been such a threat to Varys, could not have stood up to Mace's demands for more and more power, and would not have been Cersei's first choice as Hand. I am forced to conclude that, rather than being a weak man, Kevan was just a scummy one. 

Historically, obedience to orders was considered a valid defence, and it’s still a partial defence to war crimes charges.

Kevan is the kind of general (the Wehrmacht was full of them) who cares nothing about the morality of his actions, once his commander has told him what to do.

[James Arryn]

To me, Kevan’s behaviour towards Tywin is essentially faith-based. He has absolute faith in Tywin doing the best thing for the family/realm/whatever. Like people who put faith in religions or political institutions, it’s a necessarily uncritical position. He has decided Tywin knows best and his experience has, from his POV, affirmed that view. So whereas he may have once had pauses and second thoughts, he’s well past that now and just assumes that if he doesn’t understand how or why Tywin is doing something, it’s because of his own shortcomings, not Tywin’s. 

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Faif enough by modern standards almost all.the characters are pretty bad

I'd even disagree with this, though it is a fair point. But we have Davos Seaworth. We have Sansa Stark and Catelyn, and Bran, who all have moments of empathy and compassion for others. We have Gilly, and Samwell Tarly the Magnificent. There is Ned, who died for the children, and Elaria Sand, who just wants the killing to stop so she can grieve for her lover in peace. Even the morally grey characters include people like Danaerys, who wants to end the abject evil of slavery, and Arya, who wants justice not only for her family but for the smallfolk whose suffering she witnessed. Or Jaime, who is slowly detaching himself from the bankrupt values shared by Tywin and Cersei. And of course, there is Brienne of Tarth, the truest knight of them all.

ASOIAF is about people, some of whom are scum of the earth. But all the characters I mentioned above still come off as relatable and sympathetic people in spite of the messed up society they inhabit. I'd argue the story wouldn't be half as engaging and meaningful if all of the characters were "bad" by modern standards. Many of the characters are quite good by any standard. Kevan Lannister just doesn't happen to be one of them.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'd even disagree with this, though it is a fair point. But we have Davos Seaworth. We have Sansa Stark and Catelyn, and Bran, who all have moments of empathy and compassion for others. We have Gilly, and Samwell Tarly the Magnificent. There is Ned, who died for the children, and Elaria Sand, who just wants the killing to stop so she can grieve for her lover in peace. Even the morally grey characters include people like Danaerys, who wants to end the abject evil of slavery, and Arya, who wants justice not only for her family but for the smallfolk whose suffering she witnessed. Or Jaime, who is slowly detaching himself from the bankrupt values shared by Tywin and Cersei. And of course, there is Brienne of Tarth, the truest knight of them all.

ASOIAF is about people, some of whom are scum of the earth. But all the characters I mentioned above still come off as relatable and sympathetic people in spite of the messed up society they inhabit. I'd argue the story wouldn't be half as engaging and meaningful if all of the characters were "bad" by modern standards. Many of the characters are quite good by any standard. Kevan Lannister just doesn't happen to be one of them.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Brienne, Ser. Barristan, Jon Snow and Arrianne are other characters I'd consider good as well.

Edited December 6, 2022 by sifth

[Rondo]

You have to compare Kevan to the rest of his family.  Jaime, Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion are bad people.  Kevan is less bad.

[Alden Rothack]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

Brienne, Ser. Barristan, Jon Snow and Arrianne are other characters I'd consider good as well.

I agree but they still do things which would not be acceptable in many parts of the modern western world such as employ child soldiers and conduct summary executions

[Alden Rothack]

8 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'd even disagree with this, though it is a fair point. But we have Davos Seaworth. We have Sansa Stark and Catelyn, and Bran, who all have moments of empathy and compassion for others. We have Gilly, and Samwell Tarly the Magnificent. There is Ned, who died for the children, and Elaria Sand, who just wants the killing to stop so she can grieve for her lover in peace. Even the morally grey characters include people like Danaerys, who wants to end the abject evil of slavery, and Arya, who wants justice not only for her family but for the smallfolk whose suffering she witnessed. Or Jaime, who is slowly detaching himself from the bankrupt values shared by Tywin and Cersei. And of course, there is Brienne of Tarth, the truest knight of them all.

ASOIAF is about people, some of whom are scum of the earth. But all the characters I mentioned above still come off as relatable and sympathetic people in spite of the messed up society they inhabit. I'd argue the story wouldn't be half as engaging and meaningful if all of the characters were "bad" by modern standards. Many of the characters are quite good by any standard. Kevan Lannister just doesn't happen to be one of them.

That's my two cents, anyway.

I disagree, they are good people and what they do makes sense in context but what they do is often bad by modern standards, Danerys is willing to commit mass murder by torture to do 'good' things, that the evil of slavery justifies the bad does not mean its not bad, the phrase necessary evil exists for that exact reason

[Nathan Stark]

4 hours ago, Rondo said:

You have to compare Kevan to the rest of his family.  Jaime, Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion are bad people.  Kevan is less bad.

You really don't. Kevan is just as bad as Tywin, for doing all he could to carry out Tywin's orders. Jaime and Tyrion are morally grey, not outright evil, though Tyrion is headed in the wrong direction. Cersei is bad, but she is also mostly just bonkers. In comparison, Kevan is... personally kind and affable, but is just as implicated in Tywin's crimes as Tywin is.

[Nathan Stark]

1 minute ago, Alden Rothack said:

I disagree, they are good people and what they do makes sense in context but what they do is often bad by modern standards, Danerys is willing to commit mass murder by torture to do 'good' things, that the evil of slavery justifies the bad does not mean its not bad, the phrase necessary evil exists for that exact reason

Well, that's why I called Dany a grey character. There are characters who are unambigously good, like Sam or Brienne or Gilly. That was the point of my comment, to provide these examples as a contrast to  Kevan Lannister, who completely fails the test of being a good man, both in universe and by modern standards.

[Alden Rothack]

14 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Well, that's why I called Dany a grey character. There are characters who are unambigously good, like Sam or Brienne or Gilly. That was the point of my comment, to provide these examples as a contrast to  Kevan Lannister, who completely fails the test of being a good man, both in universe and by modern standards.

Kevin is not good, hes a dutiful brother while Tywin lives but he indulges his wish for revenge on Cersei once he dies

in that sense he is like Tywin, hes exfessively cruel for relatively petty reasons (He hates Tyrion and believes him guilty because it makes sense that he did Joffrey, Tyrion basically says he wished he thought of it)

Cersei is so horrible and is guilty of starting a war that cost Kevin two sons so I have great difficulty feeling sorry for her in the books (if Myrcella still dies then I will feel a little sorry for cersei but mostly for myrcella)

[Aldarion]

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Yes we can. The books were written by a modern author, for a modern audience. Saying "we can't judge these fantasy characters by modern standards" has always been a fairly weak copout in my opinion.

We cannot, because books are set in medieval setting. By medieval standards, many modern standards would be frankly insane - and for a good reason. Applying modern standards to a medieval society would end in a failed society.

Different conditions result in different standards. So we have to see what was common, and why, in a comparable historical society, and then see how it compares to that standard.

However:

33 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Well, that's why I called Dany a grey character. There are characters who are unambigously good, like Sam or Brienne or Gilly. That was the point of my comment, to provide these examples as a contrast to  Kevan Lannister, who completely fails the test of being a good man, both in universe and by modern standards.

I do agree with this. Only unambigiously good king-like characters (so a king or a lord paramount) were Ned Stark and Robb Stark. Well, Young Griff also seems good so far, but it may be too early to tell. Rest of them? Stannis is not a bad man per se, but considering what he allows Melisandre to do I would not call him a good man either. Renly decided to make a power grab for the throne. Mace just wants more power, Doran is obsessed with revenge, Tywin was a murderous asshole obsessed with grabbing power, Kevan supported him with no question and is emulating him. Edmure is... well, I don't remember much about him. Robert Arryn just wants to see people fly. Balon was a crazy asshole, Euron is an insane and flat out evil asshole. Petyr is evil.

[astarkchoice]

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'd even disagree with this, though it is a fair point. But we have Davos Seaworth. We have Sansa Stark and Catelyn, and Bran, who all have moments of empathy and compassion for others. We have Gilly, and Samwell Tarly the Magnificent. There is Ned, who died for the children, and Elaria Sand, who just wants the killing to stop so she can grieve for her lover in peace. Even the morally grey characters include people like Danaerys, who wants to end the abject evil of slavery, and Arya, who wants justice not only for her family but for the smallfolk whose suffering she witnessed. Or Jaime, who is slowly detaching himself from the bankrupt values shared by Tywin and Cersei. And of course, there is Brienne of Tarth, the truest knight of them all.

ASOIAF is about people, some of whom are scum of the earth. But all the characters I mentioned above still come off as relatable and sympathetic people in spite of the messed up society they inhabit. I'd argue the story wouldn't be half as engaging and meaningful if all of the characters were "bad" by modern standards. Many of the characters are quite good by any standard. Kevan Lannister just doesn't happen to be one of them.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Again by modern standards none are exactly  great.

Davos is an ex smuggler willing to assist stannis in waging a war that could kill thousands or tens of thousands ..even when he sees dark magic is being used

Sansa is the sort of spoiled distant head in the clouds  lady from feudal times that would always want new dresses or jewellry and be oblivious to how many starving peasants could have ate instead of those being made, ignores jofferys obvious sadism and betrays her family twice before being tortured into something resembling a better person

Cat we forget treated jon like dogshit and started a war that could end the lives of thousands and starve even more on a whim for her family regardless of how many men at arms also have families and  still betrayed them all to let jamie go

Bran is increasingly forcing his will on a mentaly disabled man whos been nothing but supportive of him to impress a girl..... hodor has literaly been carrying him and still he rapes the poor dudes mind on a fancy!!!!

Sam.and gilly il sorta give you but sams refusal to face his cowardice until late adulthood put his family in danger (weakness in a house would encourage others to strike) hes technicaly an oathbreaker amd gilly has inadvertedly  possibly helped create others with craster.

 

Ned we literaly see 1st thing  execute a man for the crime of running away from what by our standards is basicaly slavery  , has waged a rebellion war killing thousands to help avenge his family and save his own skin (never mind the soliders families  ned?)  Then goes to kl and all his thoughts are his family , friend and his own honour  never once thinking 'shit the huge household.guard iv brought here could be slaughtered if i dont quit fucking around being mr honour ..better send for reinforcements'

Elaria sand who pre red viper getting his 'eyes opened' by the mountain wanted the lannisters dead 

Dany isnt grey she may now be freeing slaves (but doing a terrible job at it) but she STILL belives mass bloodshed is fine to get the throne she believes is hers! War and countless death for commonfolk  must be waged for what she feels entitled to 

Arya is becomming a cold blooded assasin, murdering a buisnessman for short changing some widows 

Jamie threw a fucking kid out a window man and doesnt get much better until he loses a hand...even the  he still wagss war for the lannisters and threatens edmure with   his child

Brienne il sorta give u but she is also a spoilt lady child, playing knight in a world where shes expected to marry to strengten and protect her house! She can play with  swords all she wants  a marriage alliance would bring 100s if not 1000s of armed men to her familys defence thus doing far more to  ward off enemies....  but she refuses to do so instead opens them up.for scorn (the sort tytos lannister almost destroyed his house with)

Edited December 6, 2022 by astarkchoice