Blood and Weirwoods

[maesternewton]

They is a theory, a popular one, that the Weirwoods are a hivemind. Similar to the many GRRM has written in Sandkings and Tuf Voyaging.

If that's the case, then that means they have their own agenda and plans.

Weirwoods are shown to be offered blood sacrifices by the COTF and the First Men. Which leads me to the notion that it's something of sustenance for them.

Then does that make them evil, in the perspective of humans?

I mean, if they live off or like blood, then it means in order to acquire blood humans have to die.

In essence, humans are cattle.

Humans usually die during wars. So then, you can reach the thought that in order to get nutriement. The Weirwood hivemind has to instigate wars or cause conflict among humans. Therefore getting the blood it needs.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Well, I don't think that GRRM wrote the sandkings or the mudpots as evil. Self-interested, and forces to be reckoned with, for sure, but in Guardians there was a peace that was reached, and at least in Sandkings we know that alliances are possible.

Another relevant hivemind is the Greeshka from A Song for Lya, and that one is rather ambiguous as to whether there's an agency at all. Same goes for the mold in The Men at Greywater Station.

I wonder if GRRM has read Richard Dawkins' The Extended Phenotype, because it's almost as if he's saying that the notion of agency is basically irrelevant, as long as the behaviors the mold or slime affects in others is beneficial to its survival and reproduction, everything else is just some combination of genetic codes, environmental constraints, and electrochemical reactions.

I imagine he'll maintain at least some level of ambiguity with respect to the Weirwoods, as he already seems to be doing. But whether we call it agency/scheming or it's just cold biological self-interest, I think GRRM is setting up the Weirwood as a hugely powerful and influential presence in the land, a real force to be reckoned with. We shouldn't assume that it is necessarily benign or benevolent, even if it is ultimately helpful.

[The Sleeper]

I think the closest parallels is the parasite or symbiot of the Greeshka and the idols from "and seven times never kill a man". They both influenced behavior and were worshipped as gods. 

They do seem to be feeding on corpses as evidenced by the bones in Bloodraven's Grove. I think blood is supposed to make them active. The only cases that we see sapling weirwoods is in the Whispers and the Nightfort. In the first case there tales of magic and the Nightfort does not further explanation.

These things can of course occur naturally. There plenty of unattended weirwoods in the wild which survive just fine. Even if blood and corpses are necessary for their survival, plenty of creatures would live and die in their surroundings. 

This could be how they influence behavior. They attract creatures to them and survive and grow on their life cycle. In the case of intelligent creatures they become part of their culture.

I don't think they are sentient. Not in and of themselves and not in any manner a human would recognise. For one, Bloodraven describes them as trees and it was the Children and then humans who carved eyes in them. Any sentience they have in human terms is the result of the consciousnesses they absorb and what their worshippers project on them. The custom in the North of insisting family members being buried in their ancestral home could be so they can be absorbed by their tree and not be lost to future generations, much like the Greeshka did. 

There are occasions where we see weirwood become animate. The most glaring example is the Black Gate. But there other occasions, such as the gate of the House of Black and White. This is I think where blood sacrifice comes in.

The other hint about the weirwoods being active through sacrifice is the absence of skinchangers south of the Wall. The only difference that could explain this, is the active worship of weirwoods. This is also a hint of them having influence on their worshippers. Another thing to point out is that Ned, and presumably his predecessors, has been feeding the heart tree of Winterfell by cleaning his sword in the pool in front of it after executions. 

Another such potential indication is the heart tree of Harrenhal. The extreme levels of violence could be inspired by the tree and more so by the God's eye.

I don't think there is enough evidence to consider them a single collective. You could consider a single tree a collective of the people that have been buried under it. For instance the heart tree of Winterfell is a collective of all the Starks, which is why Bran connected to it rather than any of the trees above the cave. Individual groves could perhaps form a collective. I think the God's Eye is probably the one that could be considered a hive mind.

I don't think it is a monolithic presence or a matter of benevolence or enmity, but rather a species that has formed a relationship with the sentient races which has its benefits and downsides. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

There are occasions where we see weirwood become animate. The most glaring example is the Black Gate. But there other occasions, such as the gate of the House of Black and White. This is I think where blood sacrifice comes in.

Do you think they become sentient through blood sacrifice? Or it's more like blood serves as oil in their joints so that greenseers can control their movements as well as speak through them?

Because the Weirwood at the Black Gate sure seemed like a living, sentient being. It had a real face, not a carved one. It spoke through its mouth, and it recognized speech. (It also had salt water flowing through it. Not sure if that will prove important, but it's at least a curious detail for Weirwoods).

I agree that most of what we've seen in Bran's ADWD chapters makes me think of the Greeshka. But the Black Gate scene gives me pause, and makes me wonder if Weirwood trees themselves are like grotesque magical cordyceps fungus: planted inside living young with certain blood properties to get growing in the first place. Why young? Well, it is mentioned in TWOIAF that the CotF sacrificed their young in the legend of the hammer of the waters. Maybe the sacrifice is really to make new Weirwoods.

I actually was just ruminating on this topic, which also involves White Walkers and Green Men:

We don't know what those Weirwood saplings in the Whispers looked like from underground; perhaps we would see more of a humanoid or CotF type body visible, as the Weirwood has not yet reached its full size and shape. Something to consider.

Also: there likely are skinchangers South of the Wall. It's not confirmed, but there are strong hints that Euron Greyjoy is a greenseer, and then by definition would be a skin changer. Perhaps not for nothing then, that rumors about the Farwynds being skinchangers is mentioned shortly before Euron makes his claim at the Kingsmoot. 

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Do you think they become sentient through blood sacrifice? Or it's more like blood serves as oil in their joints so that greenseers can control their movements as well as speak through them?

Because the Weirwood at the Black Gate sure seemed like a living, sentient being. It had a real face, not a carved one. It spoke through its mouth, and it recognized speech. (It also had salt water flowing through it. Not sure if that will prove important, but it's at least a curious detail for Weirwoods).

I agree that most of what we've seen in Bran's ADWD chapters makes me think of the Greeshka. But the Black Gate scene gives me pause, and makes me wonder if Weirwood trees themselves are like grotesque magical cordyceps fungus: planted inside living young with certain blood properties to get growing in the first place. Why young? Well, it is mentioned in TWOIAF that the CotF sacrificed their young in the legend of the hammer of the waters. Maybe the sacrifice is really to make new Weirwoods.

I actually was just ruminating on this topic, which also involves White Walkers and Green Men:

We don't know what those Weirwood saplings in the Whispers looked like from underground; perhaps we would see more of a humanoid or CotF type body visible, as the Weirwood has not yet reached its full size and shape. Something to consider.

Also: there likely are skinchangers South of the Wall. It's not confirmed, but there are strong hints that Euron Greyjoy is a greenseer, and then by definition would be a skin changer. Perhaps not for nothing then, that rumors about the Farwynds being skinchangers is mentioned shortly before Euron makes his claim at the Kingsmoot. 

I think that the Black Gate is the opposite of what you are suggesting. That someone was sacrificed to hold the door and that is what gave the weirwood its shape and function. And yes that it might be Hodor.

It links to what Ygritte was saying that the Wall was built by blood as well as the deserters who were frozen in place. In short I think weirwood was the medium used to make an immortal sentry. And it is crying because it is not happy about the situation. 

The lore about the Whispers is that Clarence Crabb's witch wife kept heads which she consulted. From what we have seen about the series this could be literally the case. Regardless, some sort of magic took place that created favorable conditions for a weirwood to sprout. 

I don't believe that Euron is greeneer or anything like that. I think that his involvement with magic started when he captured the warlocks. After all, he was mentioned before in the series. He was always a dangerous prick, but there was no mention of him being weird.

There is a known greenseer from the South. Bloodraven. Who was also notably a member of an old gods worshipping house. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if my pet theory was wrong. But one of its primary strengths is that it ties up a lot of stuff that is otherwise quite puzzling. So If it's wrong, we would still have to ask why the CotF sacrificed babies, why the Others also want human babies of certain bloodlines. How the man at the Black Gate was fused into this crazy hybrid giant tree thing.  What's the purpose of the Green Men, and lore about Garth Greenhand planting seed and impregnating human women, especially when it would be possible to interbreed with CotF for greenseer abilities. And so on and so forth.

23 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

And yes that it might be Hodor.

It couldn't be Hodor, because Hodor walked through the Gate. I understand that Hodor's "hold the door" moment could well involve a link between past and present, which potentially creates some paradoxes, but the Black Gate giant is not stuck in time; he's been there waiting the whole time. GRRM would not be so sloppy with his paradoxes. His other time travel writing confirms this.

23 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I don't believe that Euron is greeneer or anything like that. I think that his involvement with magic started when he captured the warlocks. After all, he was mentioned before in the series. He was always a dangerous prick, but there was no mention of him being weird.

 

Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

 

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

 

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

That's some really close pairing with Bran's third eye being opened. Fall from the tower, dreaming about flying, maester playing it down. Speaking of eyes being opened, his sigil is an eye adorned by two crows.

23 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

There is a known greenseer from the South. Bloodraven.

Yes, just so. I think Euron knows him too. 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

For what it's worth, both A Song for Lya and And Seven Times Never Kill Man mention the possibility of the passive-seeming symbiotes actually being more parasitic. The former mentions psy-lures, which we possibly see evidence of in Robb's dream of Lyanna; and the latter mentions Hrangan use of Githyanki soul-sucks and other "vampires of the mind" to control their enemies without their knowing it. It's quite possible that the pyramids worshipped as gods are actually some kind of Hrangan psy-tech used for nefarious purposes. 

So while I agree that both stories largely depict the symbiotes as passive catalysts of psy-harmony among their hosts, I think at best it's left to be somewhat ambiguous.

[The Sleeper]

26 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if my pet theory was wrong. But one of its primary strengths is that it ties up a lot of stuff that is otherwise quite puzzling. So If it's wrong, we would still have to ask why the CotF sacrificed babies, why the Others also want human babies of certain bloodlines. How the man at the Black Gate was fused into this crazy hybrid giant tree thing.  What's the purpose of the Green Men, and lore about Garth Greenhand planting seed and impregnating human women, especially when it would be possible to interbreed with CotF for greenseer abilities. And so on and so forth.

 

 

 

 

I don't think that there is a particular need to connect everything. For one thing magic is not exclusive to any particular faction or bloodline. They do have some things in common in that most kinds appear to require some sort of sacrifice.

For example we have seen elemental control through blood sacrifices and specifically the winds. Considering that the hammer of the waters was on a continental scale the sacrifice would have proportionally greater in quality and quantity. 

The how of the Black Gate is basically magic. There is no need for further explanation than that. Martin might provide further details as to the specifics, but that would essentially be flavor. I expect that he will provide further information on the nature of the weirwoods and that will in turn provide the context of the Black Gate.

I agree that the skinchanging/greenseer abilities originated from the Children and that is because they only exist in Westeros and as far as we know it is the only place where humans coexisted with them. Garth is also meant to be a mythological figure. 

We also have no notion if the Others require babies from a particular bloodline. 

49 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

It couldn't be Hodor, because Hodor walked through the Gate. I understand that Hodor's "hold the door" moment could well involve a link between past and present, which potentially creates some paradoxes, but the Black Gate giant is not stuck in time; he's been there waiting the whole time. GRRM would not be so sloppy with his paradoxes. His other time travel writing confirms this.

I don't see the problem. Hodor experiencing two separate existences simultaneously would certainly account for his mental state. There are a number of other ways it could work.

 

57 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

 

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

 

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

That's some really close pairing with Bran's third eye being opened. Fall from the tower, dreaming about flying, maester playing it down. Speaking of eyes being opened, his sigil is an eye adorned by two crows.

Yes, just so. I think Euron knows him too. 

 

I could see it from a literary perspective. But from in story it looks a little thin. The lore surrounding him and his circumstances are completely different. His association is with the warlocks and the shade of the evening, which comes from trees that appear to be the equivalent but opposite of the weirwoods. Which granted places him in opposition to Bran but also points to his involvement with magic being recent. 

 

40 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

For what it's worth, both A Song for Lya and And Seven Times Never Kill Man mention the possibility of the passive-seeming symbiotes actually being more parasitic. The former mentions psy-lures, which we possibly see evidence of in Robb's dream of Lyanna; and the latter mentions Hrangan use of Githyanki soul-sucks and other "vampires of the mind" to control their enemies without their knowing it. It's quite possible that the pyramids worshipped as gods are actually some kind of Hrangan psy-tech used for nefarious purposes. 

So while I agree that both stories largely depict the symbiotes as passive catalysts of psy-harmony among their hosts, I think at best it's left to be somewhat ambiguous.

I do think the pyramids are a lot creepier and could well be seen as mind control devices. A Song for Lya is a lot more complicated than the mechanics of the organism, which serve as a catalyst for the thoughts and actions of the characters. Now that I think about it, the way it is woven is quite brilliant. 

I see the weirwoods themed after the cycle of life and death in nature. You could say that the Children being more aware of their nature could have a more balanced relationship with them. You could see how human beings projecting their own desires and preconceptions could fuck things up. For instance imagine the hatreds of past generations living forever in weirwoods and influencing the current generation. Which is a theme in the books actually. There is plenty of room for ambiguity. 

[The Sleeper]

By the way, regarding the question of the op. There is no indication that the Children or the First Men were noticeably more violent or belligerent than than anyone else. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

16 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I don't think that there is a particular need to connect everything.

In general, your responses here seem to amount to a lot of "agree to disagree" territory. Which is fine. GRRM is pretty good at seeding his stories in ways that feel like natural progressions but nevertheless contain surprises, and so it's not crazy if people speculating on where the story is going will disagree, and place focus on different details and themes.

It's just that if we're in agree-to-disagree territory, I'm less inclined to provide an in-depth, line-by-line response. I would say that if you happen to be interested in my line of thinking on these matters, I have written a few lengthy topic posts about magical bloodlines, the nature of magic, and where the story could be heading as a result. You're welcome to check them out and tell me what you think. But given that you don't seem all that interested in that particular line of thought, I'm just gonna leave it at that.

21 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

You could see how human beings projecting their own desires and preconceptions could fuck things up. For instance imagine the hatreds of past generations living forever in weirwoods and influencing the current generation. Which is a theme in the books actually.

That is a cool thought. Certainly a possibility.

[Jon Fossoway]

The practice of hanging entrails to the branches of a weirwood can be said to be mostly finished from a long time ago so I don't see how this hivemind could be surviving up to the progress of the main novels if it basically can't eat to sustain itself.

If the hivemind theory is correct, for me is more like a telephone system, or an Internet system that one can tap into, but it's not alive in itself. Nor it has its own agenda.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

On 12/5/2022 at 12:54 PM, maesternewton said:

They is a theory, a popular one, that the Weirwoods are a hivemind. Similar to the many GRRM has written in Sandkings and Tuf Voyaging.

If that's the case, then that means they have their own agenda and plans.

Weirwoods are shown to be offered blood sacrifices by the COTF and the First Men. Which leads me to the notion that it's something of sustenance for them.

Then does that make them evil, in the perspective of humans?

I mean, if they live off or like blood, then it means in order to acquire blood humans have to die.

In essence, humans are cattle.

Humans usually die during wars. So then, you can reach the thought that in order to get nutriement. The Weirwood hivemind has to instigate wars or cause conflict among humans. Therefore getting the blood it needs.

Blood is the fertilizer for the trees.  It offers nutrients from the poor sacrificial victim.  The hive minded are the spirits of the Greenseers.  The trees are linked and so too are the Greenseers.  Feed the tree with blood and the GS are also fed.  It is they who manipulate the humans into conflict.  Law and order are not good for encouraging the people to worship the Old Gods and spilling blood to feed the trees.  The GS provoke war through peoople's dreams by giving them trick visions. 

[Springwatch]

I dipped into the early works a few times, but they're too chilly for me and I try to forget them - but I'm getting more and more convinced they're the earliest seeds for the current books.

So those early works had both fungus and pyramids? That's great, because as well as trees, we've got lots of pyramids, spikes, crystals. Two opposing sets of 'gods' would really get the game of thrones going.

I vaguely remember that religion was blamed for halting the progression of human society, and controlling fertility - that could be in asoiaf too, the lack of progress, and the amazing frequency of incest.

Has anyone read Wildcards? I really don't think I want to read Wildcards, but there's a sort of fatality about those ideas appearing in asoiaf too.

ETA

Great thread, by the way.

ETA 2

Not saying that every pyramid contains a god, just that over the millennia - religion, legend and culture form imperfect images of what the gods are actually like.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Two opposing sets of 'gods' would really get the game of thrones going.

That's in And Seven Times Never Kill Man! 

The Steel Angels are these orthodox true-believers in a religion based on the Pale Child Bakkalon: a demon spirit that GRRM first wrote about as a teenager, then turned into one of "The Seven" in his Thousand World stories. Seems more like Seven evil spirits rather than gods, but at least the Steel Angels worshipped the Pale Child as their god. No clear evidence in the story that he exists, though that's pretty much like ASOIAF, where the Faith of the Seven seems to be the one religion with no proper magical basis. 

Then there are the Jaenshi followers of the pyramid gods who remain nameless.

Interestingly enough, Arya comes across a statue of Bakkalon in the HoBaW. But I'm pretty sure that's just a cute Easter egg. 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Red leaves still contain chlorophylls and does photosynthesis and Iron is needed for chlorophylls, so blood sacrifice is an important nutrition source for Weirwoods, supplying them with the necessary iron. Iron Islanders, as the name suggest, live and grow in an iron(and many other metals) rich environment and their diet consists of fish, which are known to accumulate heavy metals. So it is my guess that Ironborn would make the best blood sacrifice for Weirwoods. Bring in the copper sickles!

[Phylum of Alexandria]

45 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Red leaves still contain chlorophylls and does photosynthesis and Iron is needed for chlorophylls, so blood sacrifice is an important nutrition source for Weirwoods, supplying them with the necessary iron. Iron Islanders, as the name suggest, live and grow in an iron(and many other metals) rich environment and their diet consists of fish, which are known to accumulate heavy metals. So it is my guess that Ironborn would make the best blood sacrifice for Weirwoods. Bring in the copper sickles!

Methinks this is your pitch to have GRRM write in an Ironborn genocide...

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Methinks this is your pitch to have GRRM write in an Ironborn genocide...

What no! If all are dead someone else will have to populate those dreary isles. Every now and then when Ironborn raise their heads this could be the punishment though.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What no! If all are dead someone else will have to populate those dreary isles. 

Plus, you know, if the rising harder and stronger stuff is true, then there will be an island full of people who are both despicable and UNSTOPPABLE.

[Corvo the Crow]

16 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Plus, you know, if the rising harder and stronger stuff is true, then there will be an island full of people who are both despicable and UNSTOPPABLE.

That's White Walker recruitment propaganda if I've ever seen one! Next we'll see posters saying "I want you for Walder White"