U.S politics: You got knocked the Warnocked out:

[DireWolfSpirit]

7 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Covered. A very costly win, if you want to call it that. The US traded her for V. Bout. Objectively this deal shouldn't have happened. 

No objectivity involved, millions willl breathe a huge sigh of relief to get a star back like this.

Its a huge win politically.

[Gaston de Foix]

19 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I keep hoping he will wake up.  

I don't think he will, because he's not a believer in the first place.  It's pure opportunism.  A believer might recant, and but an opportunist will just write it off as a bad bet and adjust his views.  I'm sure he believes in some of the Republican shtick (small government, a balanced budget, federalism) and those views are defensible and maybe even right.  But he doesn't believe in Christ, or Biblical truth, or the inherent evil of homosexuality or anything like that.  Mostly he believes in himself, and given the opportunity, the many compromises and sacrifices will be worth it.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

31 minutes ago, JGP said:

REALLY, Scot?

Yes, really, I believe people can change.  They simply do so rarely.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

5 minutes ago, JGP said:

Why's that?

Bout is a POS, who was involved in the deaths of countless people, with probable connections to the Russian Secret Service. Griner is an athlete held hostage by a terrorist state. He was still due to serve 11 more years of his 25 year term (way too little for him). In a just world Bout would've never seen the light of day again.

 

[JGP]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes, really, I believe people can change.  They simply do so rarely.

I mean, I know that dehumanizing is bad... the underlying presumption there might your problem in regard to Cruz, yo :p

 

[Tywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

In a just world Bout would've never seen the light of day again.

In a just world Griner wouldn't have to go play in Russia to supplement her income and then be detained as a political PoW. Obviously their transgressions are not the same, but this was the deal or she faced god knows what horrors in that prison camp. 

[JGP]

3 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Bout is a POS, who was involved in the deaths of countless people, with probable connections to the Russian Secret Service. Griner is an athlete held hostage by a terrorist state. He was still due to serve 11 more years of his 25 year term (way too little for him). In a just world Bout would've never seen the light of day again.

 

I know who Bout is.

Maybe I'm not fussy because I'm not an American.  

[JGP]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

In a just world Griner wouldn't have to go play in Russia to supplement her income and then be detained as a political PoW. Obviously their transgressions are not the same, but this was the deal or she faced god knows what horrors in that prison camp. 

Nadya from Pussy Riot did a few interviews iirc about how bad that particular camp is.

Fuck that. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by JGP

[Kalbear]

This is great for Greiner, and also is a great way to ensure that higher profile people from enemies of Russia get kidnapped and are used to get massive criminals out when those criminals support Russia. That's not really a great thing. 

[Gaston de Foix]

5 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Bout is a POS, who was involved in the deaths of countless people, with probable connections to the Russian Secret Service. Griner is an athlete held hostage by a terrorist state. He was still due to serve 11 more years of his 25 year term (way too little for him). In a just world Bout would've never seen the light of day again.

 

So he served 14 years.  That's still an effective deterrent for getting into his line of work.  But there are and will remain countless evil men like him.  And everything you say is true about Russia being a terrorist state.  Griner is innocent. 

In the criminal law we say better 10 guilty people go free than 1 innocent person be unjustly convicted.  A 1 to 1 ratio is much better odds, surely?

[Gaston de Foix]

Just now, Kalnestk Oblast said:

This is great for Greiner, and also is a great way to ensure that higher profile people from enemies of Russia get kidnapped and are used to get massive criminals out when those criminals support Russia. That's not really a great thing. 

Yeah, that's a terrible thing.  But its not a new ploy.  Russia, Iran, North Korea, China all run this play because they think they can extort concessions because Western democracies are soft and care about their citizens.  And sometimes they manage to do so.   

But the day will come when the citizens they don't give a shit about will rise up and overthrow them.  

[Fez]

5 minutes ago, JGP said:

I know who Bout is.

Maybe I'm not fussy because I'm not an American.  

The US was rarely the target of the weapons he sold. African countries, Israel, and Balkan countries were much more likely to be impacted. He's a scumbag to the world.

[JGP]

Sure. Still.

The moral relativism is a bit much lol

[shrugs]

Better to get the trade they could [to crib Ty's MO]

[Maithanet]

6 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

This is great for Greiner, and also is a great way to ensure that higher profile people from enemies of Russia get kidnapped and are used to get massive criminals out when those criminals support Russia. That's not really a great thing. 

It's not like this hasn't had significant cost for Russia as well.  Russia used to have a vibrant women's basketball scene, such that many top players from across the world competed in its leagues.  That is basically gone.

Quote

Nearly a dozen WNBA players competed in Russia last winter and none of them are heading back this year.

And this extends well beyond basketball as well.  Russia quite openly just kidnapped someone for ransom, and that will make anyone looking to potentially visit or work in Russia look elsewhere.  I personally have always been fascinated by Russian history and would like to visit someday when it is safe, but this is yet more evidence that we're nowhere near that point. 

[JGP]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

And this extends well beyond basketball as well.  Russia quite openly just kidnapped someone for ransom... [snip]

Political kidnappings [to @Kalnestk Oblast's point as well] I mean yeah, but cat's been out of the bag for a longtime on such, no?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

This is great for Greiner, and also is a great way to ensure that higher profile people from enemies of Russia get kidnapped and are used to get massive criminals out when those criminals support Russia. That's not really a great thing. 

It’s a great warning against anyone traveling to Russia.

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, JGP said:

Political kidnappings [to @Kalnestk Oblast's point as well] I mean yeah, but cat's been out of the bag for a longtime on such, no?

It's not new, no.  But most countries don't do it because the damage to an entire country's reputation, business deals, tourism, etc, is much greater than the potential gain of ransoming somebody rich/famous.  But there are always criminal regimes that don't care about that kind of thing, and Russia is clearly willing to be amongst that group. 

[Kalbear]

It's been out of the bag but the willingness to exchange high profile prisoners so quickly in exchange for even higher profile scumbags has not been quite so...willing. Partially because we weren't in such an adversarial place, and partly because we would tend to let things wait for a while. 

Because Viktor Bout is on that sort of thing a Pretty Big Deal. Losing him for a non-political star like Griner is a new escalation in that scale; Bout previously would not have warranted that sort of exchange, like, ever.

It also means that one of the means of justice that people have sought - extradition and jailing - of some of the Russian oligarchs and other folks is basically not going to happen. 

[JGP]

11 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

It also means that one of the means of justice that people have sought - extradition and jailing - of some of the Russian oligarchs and other folks is basically not going to happen. 

I don't think you're wrong per se Kal, I'm not sure how you can conclude the quoted confidently though. 

Ukraine has changed things.  

If the international community remains behind them and continues to help get them over the hump, I don't see a lot of the notables and/or behind the scenes pricks not getting comeuppance of some type. Even, if it's only sanctions and freedom of movement related. 

That'll, almost, be a whole other thing and very different metric I suspect.

Or think, anyway. 

 

I do get the concern.  

Edited December 8, 2022 by JGP

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I am entirely in agreement with Kal. 

I find this deal obscene. Plain and simple. Ofc, I wasn't the one facing time in some gulag and I am not related to Griner in any shape or form, which makes it much easier to take the morale high ground here. 

You kinda have to wonder, what happened to the US policy of not making deal with terrorists.