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Was Westeros on the Verge of their Early Modern Period?


Craving Peaches

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The descriptions of clothing all sound like renaissance era rather than medieval. The military all seem late medieval as well. There is trade with the Free Cities, who seem like they could soon have their renaissance equivalent. I feel like if only that long summer lasted a few more years...

Obviously with the wars and winter coming on I doubt anything will happen now, but I did get the feeling they were slowly progressing towards this.

I think the cyclical harsh winters must be an issue because every few years the population growth will be stunted. Perhaps the magic was playing a role as well, and with the magic seemingly gone actual scientific progress could start. Of course now it's back so...

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This is a fantasy series, not historical fiction. So we really can't put the march of progress in Westeros on the same kind of scale as our own real history. For instance, gunpowder does not exist within the world of ASOIAF. This being the case, there will be no advancement of military technology that incorporates what we might consider "modern" weaponry. Fashion choices might change and be discussed within the text, but this is much more about establishing the mood and tone of the story than it is about linking the worldbuilding to our own real world history.

The uneven seasons could certainly explain why progress in this series seems so slow, but remember that our own technological growth only feels inevitable because that's how history turned out for us. In reality, progress of that sort is itself uneven, messy and often dependent on larger social or political needs. The steam engine was originally introduced as far back as ancient Greece, and Roman emperors were noted to have looked upon early steam engines as wonderful little contraptions, but there is no need for steam engines in a world where slavery gets 99% of the economic labor done. So they just remained as little footnotes for most of world history until the industrial revolution. 

Basically, does Westeros need the sort of progress we take for granted? Does the larger Planetos itself need that sort of technological or philosophical or scientific progress? Not unless the ruling elites say so. So far, they do not. And even if things changed on those fronts, there are other, more practical limitations, like the inability to create gunpowder, the common usage of wildfire which makes gunpowder unnecessary anyway, and the presence of flying nuclear lizards. What Westeros really needs is not technological growth. It needs political growth. It needs rulers, philosophers, scientists and artists to take the concerns of the smallfolk seriously. And while places like Braavos certainly seem well within their own rennaisance period, they are unlikely to advance technologically because they experience the same practical limitations the rest of Planetos does.

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Part of the problem is all learning is kept sequestered into a small group of individuals (maesters) , that and  the apocalypse style seasons and to muddy the waters magic is actualy real! 

Most of essos has the additional handicap of slave labour driving industry which holds back innovation

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18 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Part of the problem is all learning is kept sequestered into a small group of individuals (maesters) , that and  the apocalypse style seasons and to muddy the waters magic is actualy real! 

Most of essos has the additional handicap of slave labour driving industry which holds back innovation

yes

it depends on what happens over the next half century, if labour saving becomes desirable it will be invented then improved (in my own setting gunpowder weapons were never developed because any hedge mage can turn them into a bomb on sight)

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10 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

yes

it depends on what happens over the next half century, if labour saving becomes desirable it will be invented then improved (in my own setting gunpowder weapons were never developed because any hedge mage can turn them into a bomb on sight)

Wildfire def has potential but then again so has the resurection of magic ! from dragons to glass candles 

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It's been a while so I can't really back this up with citations to the books, but my sense is that the series as a whole is a hotchpotch of the entire period from late antiquity to late renaissance; like from 600-1450, with most of it feeling like high middle ages through early-mid renaissance, about 1100-1400.

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4 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

It's been a while so I can't really back this up with citations to the books, but my sense is that the series as a whole is a hotchpotch of the entire period from late antiquity to late renaissance; like from 600-1450, with most of it feeling like high middle ages through early-mid renaissance, about 1100-1400.

I'd say 1150-1300 personally, before that kings didn't stay in the capital a lot and after that you rapid changes brought on famine and plague

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19 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

So we really can't put the march of progress in Westeros on the same kind of scale as our own real history.

This is true to an extent, but they have gone from bronze age to iron age to post-iron age if you look at how the weaponry progresses from bronze to iron to steel. So there has been some progress, even if it's slow, so you would expect that it wouldn't just stop at a certain point, but carry on gradually.

19 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Basically, does Westeros need the sort of progress we take for granted? Does the larger Planetos itself need that sort of technological or philosophical or scientific progress? Not unless the ruling elites say so.

I think they might be more open towards innovation at the end, when a large portion of the population has died and they want to repopulate their lands with serfs.

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7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is true to an extent, but they have gone from bronze age to iron age to post-iron age if you look at how the weaponry progresses from bronze to iron to steel. So there has been some progress, even if it's slow, so you would expect that it wouldn't just stop at a certain point, but carry on gradually.

I think they might be more open towards innovation at the end, when a large portion of the population has died and they want to repopulate their lands with serfs.

Sure, but like I pointed out, there are limitations. No gunpoweder? Than you don't get cannons, or muskets. If you have no ability to use cannons or muskets, than you don't develop metallurgy or any kind of blacksmithing techniques to create weapons like cannons or muskets. Maybe Planetosi civilizations could create something like a working steam engine. But even if they did, what would a midieval or rennaisance era society use one for? The other issue is that it's relatively simple to transition from bronze to iron to making steel. But going from where Westeros and Essos are now to some kind of industrial civilization? That sort of thing was never even gaurenteed in our own history, let alone a planet with as unstable a climate as Planetos. That being the case, I do not see Planetosi societies developing anything like the sort of technology we have.

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4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Sure, but like I pointed out, there are limitations. No gunpoweder? Than you don't get cannons, or muskets. If you have no ability to use cannons or muskets, than you don't develop metallurgy or any kind of blacksmithing techniques to create weapons like cannons or muskets. Maybe Planetosi civilizations could create something like a working steam engine. But even if they did, what would a midieval or rennaisance era society use one for? The other issue is that it's relatively simple to transition from bronze to iron to making steel. But going from where Westeros and Essos are now to some kind of industrial civilization? That sort of thing was never even gaurenteed in our own history, let alone a planet with as unstable a climate as Planetos. That being the case, I do not see Planetosi societies developing anything like the sort of technology we have.

They might have already invented steam, one of the first uses of steam was in mining

early steam ships weren't worth the effort unless you had a huge amount of navigatable rivers

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