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Which Small Council replacements Ned should have made ?


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Just now, sifth said:

He should have kept Renly and got rid of everyone else. Littlefinger and Varys first. Luwin or Pylos would be good replacements for Grand Maester. Wyman Manderly would be great for Littlefingers job. Replacing Varys will be the hard part; I honestly can't think of anyone.

I would give Manderley Whispers and give someone else littlefingers job since he can't officially be both

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8 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

All of 'em. He had no reason to trust any of them and he could see for himself how ineffectual they were at anything other than enabling the worst of Robert's proclivities. Makes you wonder about Jon Arryn. This guy created more problems than he solved and was a pretty mediocre judge of character.  

 

Jon Arryn was old, he was frankly past it by the Rebellion but couldn't pass the position to more able men because the one Robert trusted was too busy.

Some people could have pulled it off anything (Sir William Marshal and Nicola de la Hay were both in their 70s the last time they held high office, Sir William fought and defeated a french prince a third his age and de le Hay held off said prince for months while Sir William got ready) but those people are the exception

Jon Arryn was an above average man in a position which needed a great one.

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He should have made the following appointments:

Master of Ships: Stannis
Master of Laws: Stannis
Master of Coin: Stannis
Master of Whispers: Stannis
Commander of the City Watch: Stannis

Then resigned as Hand and appointed Stannis to replace himself.
Brought to you by the Stannis Fan Club

OK, so seriously...

Part of the problem is that Ned has no native powerbase in Kings Landing and needs to work out the lay of the land before he can start making wholesale changes. Moreover, from his perspective, the main problem facing Kings Landing is the dominance of Lannister placemen, but that's not something that's reflected on the Small Council. At the time Ned arrives in Kings Landing, the Small Council comprises:

Hand: Ned (Baratheon loyalist)
Master of Ships: Stannis (Baratheon)
Master of Laws: Renly (Baratheon)
Master of Whispers: Varys (ostensibly neutral, secret Targ loyalist)
Master of Coin: Littlefinger (ostensible Arryn/Tully/Baratheon loyalist, secretly loyal only to himself)
City Watch commander: Janos Slynt (known to be corrupt, no fixed loyalty)
Kingsguard commander: Barristan Selmy(Robert loyalist by definition)
Grand Maester: Pycelle (ostensibly neutral, secret Lannister loyalist)

If Ned sees his role as strengthening Robert's position, which is indeed why he's been appointed, then the Council in and of itself looks reasonably solid. The apparent weak spots are Varys and Janos Slynt.  If Ned is a bit more savvy he might suspect Pycelle given what happened to Aerys, but Pycelle is also one of the positions he can't really replace.

Varys is an obvious curiosity given that he served Aerys and Ned might be minded to get rid of him. But in fact Varys is perhaps the council member who Ned can best rely on. He was opposed to Illyrio's suggestion of killing Ned, and had he been sacked that might have ended with Ned's death there and then. And he does his best to negotiate a deal for Ned that sees him remain alive and in play, which is only undermined by Joffrey's bloodthirst (and possibly Littlefinger's suggestion). Dismissing Varys might actually weaken Ned's position in the short term.

As to Janos Slynt, we know Jon Arryn tried to have him replaced, and Robert refused, so he's not going to be easy to get rid of. Moreover, Ned may believe that since Slynt's corruption is a known quantity, he can be controlled simply through bribes and therefore agree with Robert that it's safe to leave him in place until he's got his feet under the table. Indeed, this calculation would be correct save that Ned trusts the bribing of Slynt to Littlefinger.

Really Ned's Handship falls apart principally because Littlefinger betrays him, but Littlefinger is also the member of the council he believes he can trust, with links to both the Arryns and Cat. Littlefinger is also, together with Varys, the council member who is best at his job, keeping the crown solvent despite Robert's profligacy. So putting oneself in Ned's shoes at the time he arrives in Kings Landing, sacking Littlefinger isn't something that's likely to seem a good idea.

Now, if we assume that Ned is simply omniscient, knows what's to come and decides to purge the Small Council notwithstanding and instate his own people, I would suggest appointments along the lines of the following:

Master of Ships: Give Stannis an ultimatum that he must return to Kings Landing. If Stannis refuses - and this is a suggestion out of left field - Balon Greyjoy. The Greyjoys as they stand are a liability, but ships is the one thing they can do. And getting Balon out of Pyke will help to stop the nonsense that goes down after Robert's death. It won't stop Euron from returning but it might mitigate the damage the Iron Islands can cause. If Balon refuses, then Victarion, and if he refuses, then obviously treason is in the offing anyway and military action against the Iron Islands starts to look inevitable.
Master of Laws: Leave Renly in place. He has powerful allies, is prepared to work with Ned, is popular, and isn't obviously incompetent.
Master of Whispers: Retain Varys initially until the transition period is over, then remove him and replace him with Willas Tyrell. There isn't a northerner obviously suited to this position except Roose Bolton, who... no.
Master of Coin: In all honesty it is seriously tempting to suggest Tyrion Lannister here. But Wyman Manderly is probably a better choice, and certainly likely to be more loyal.
City Watch Commander: Jacelyn Bywater. A straightforwardly good and reliable man who already knows the Watch. We have no reason to suspect he wouldn't serve Ned as well as he did Tyrion.
Grand Maester: Assuming Pycelle is sackable, we don't know who would actually be in line as next Grand Maester. But of the maesters we know of, I would probably go for Cressen. Better I think to leave Luwin in place in Winterfell to advise Robb, and bring another Baratheon loyalist on board.

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10 hours ago, Adelstein said:

He should have made the following appointments:

Master of Ships: Stannis
Master of Laws: Stannis
Master of Coin: Stannis
Master of Whispers: Stannis
Commander of the City Watch: Stannis

Then resigned as Hand and appointed Stannis to replace himself.
Brought to you by the Stannis Fan Club

OK, so seriously...

Part of the problem is that Ned has no native powerbase in Kings Landing and needs to work out the lay of the land before he can start making wholesale changes. Moreover, from his perspective, the main problem facing Kings Landing is the dominance of Lannister placemen, but that's not something that's reflected on the Small Council. At the time Ned arrives in Kings Landing, the Small Council comprises:

Hand: Ned (Baratheon loyalist)
Master of Ships: Stannis (Baratheon)
Master of Laws: Renly (Baratheon)
Master of Whispers: Varys (ostensibly neutral, secret Targ loyalist)
Master of Coin: Littlefinger (ostensible Arryn/Tully/Baratheon loyalist, secretly loyal only to himself)
City Watch commander: Janos Slynt (known to be corrupt, no fixed loyalty)
Kingsguard commander: Barristan Selmy(Robert loyalist by definition)
Grand Maester: Pycelle (ostensibly neutral, secret Lannister loyalist)

If Ned sees his role as strengthening Robert's position, which is indeed why he's been appointed, then the Council in and of itself looks reasonably solid. The apparent weak spots are Varys and Janos Slynt.  If Ned is a bit more savvy he might suspect Pycelle given what happened to Aerys, but Pycelle is also one of the positions he can't really replace.

Varys is an obvious curiosity given that he served Aerys and Ned might be minded to get rid of him. But in fact Varys is perhaps the council member who Ned can best rely on. He was opposed to Illyrio's suggestion of killing Ned, and had he been sacked that might have ended with Ned's death there and then. And he does his best to negotiate a deal for Ned that sees him remain alive and in play, which is only undermined by Joffrey's bloodthirst (and possibly Littlefinger's suggestion). Dismissing Varys might actually weaken Ned's position in the short term.

As to Janos Slynt, we know Jon Arryn tried to have him replaced, and Robert refused, so he's not going to be easy to get rid of. Moreover, Ned may believe that since Slynt's corruption is a known quantity, he can be controlled simply through bribes and therefore agree with Robert that it's safe to leave him in place until he's got his feet under the table. Indeed, this calculation would be correct save that Ned trusts the bribing of Slynt to Littlefinger.

Really Ned's Handship falls apart principally because Littlefinger betrays him, but Littlefinger is also the member of the council he believes he can trust, with links to both the Arryns and Cat. Littlefinger is also, together with Varys, the council member who is best at his job, keeping the crown solvent despite Robert's profligacy. So putting oneself in Ned's shoes at the time he arrives in Kings Landing, sacking Littlefinger isn't something that's likely to seem a good idea.

Now, if we assume that Ned is simply omniscient, knows what's to come and decides to purge the Small Council notwithstanding and instate his own people, I would suggest appointments along the lines of the following:

Master of Ships: Give Stannis an ultimatum that he must return to Kings Landing. If Stannis refuses - and this is a suggestion out of left field - Balon Greyjoy. The Greyjoys as they stand are a liability, but ships is the one thing they can do. And getting Balon out of Pyke will help to stop the nonsense that goes down after Robert's death. It won't stop Euron from returning but it might mitigate the damage the Iron Islands can cause. If Balon refuses, then Victarion, and if he refuses, then obviously treason is in the offing anyway and military action against the Iron Islands starts to look inevitable.
Master of Laws: Leave Renly in place. He has powerful allies, is prepared to work with Ned, is popular, and isn't obviously incompetent.
Master of Whispers: Retain Varys initially until the transition period is over, then remove him and replace him with Willas Tyrell. There isn't a northerner obviously suited to this position except Roose Bolton, who... no.
Master of Coin: In all honesty it is seriously tempting to suggest Tyrion Lannister here. But Wyman Manderly is probably a better choice, and certainly likely to be more loyal.
City Watch Commander: Jacelyn Bywater. A straightforwardly good and reliable man who already knows the Watch. We have no reason to suspect he wouldn't serve Ned as well as he did Tyrion.
Grand Maester: Assuming Pycelle is sackable, we don't know who would actually be in line as next Grand Maester. But of the maesters we know of, I would probably go for Cressen. Better I think to leave Luwin in place in Winterfell to advise Robb, and bring another Baratheon loyalist on board.

Tyrion for Coin and Manderley for ships because the Ironborn will refuse, I'd bring in loyal men to increase the goldcloaks too as two thousand is not that many for a city the size of KL.

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Ned's Handship only lasted for a couple of months, out of which he spent part of it on bed with fever. He barely had time to assess the character of the members of the Small Council, let alone make replacements.

Ned came to court with the idea that the Lannisters had murdered Jon Arryn and may be planning to usurp power. With this in mind, keeping both of the Baratheon brothers (and lords of the Blackwater Bay and the Stormlands) is indispensable. He will need their support. It makes a lot of sense to trust Barristan and Varys, as they are very unlikely to have Lannister sympathies (Barristan is honorable, Varys warned against opening KL's gates to Tywin, and both served under the Targaryens).

As others have said before, Ned had no reason no mistrust Littlefinger. He had been brought to court by Jon Arryn, he was a childhood friend of Cat, had been helping Ned with his investigation,...

So that only leaves Pycelle. But he couldn't be ousted. Grand Maesters serve for live, and the only precedent of one of them being "fired" is Maegor's beheading a few of his ones, and Orwyle being sentenced to death for high treason.

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7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

As others have said before, Ned had no reason no mistrust Littlefinger. He had been brought to court by Jon Arryn, he was a childhood friend of Cat, had been helping Ned with his investigation,..

Most husbands would not trust a man who had fought and lost a duel for right to marry woman who is nowadays his wife.

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12 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Most husbands would not trust a man who had fought and lost a duel for right to marry woman who is nowadays his wife.

Fair enough, although context matters here. This was 14/15 boy of no lineage claiming to be in love with a 18/19 year old woman, and challenging to a duel a 20 year old man. Everyone saw it as the foolishness of youth. Nearly 20 years after, no sane man would hold a grudge with the Starks (Brandon went very easy on Petyr, and Ned wasn't even there).

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3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Fair enough, although context matters here. This was 14/15 boy of no lineage claiming to be in love with a 18/19 year old woman, and challenging to a duel a 20 year old man. Everyone saw it as the foolishness of youth. Nearly 20 years after, no sane man would hold a grudge with the Starks (Brandon went very easy on Petyr, and Ned wasn't even there).

Ohh I’ve known people to hold grudges longer than 20 years. Trust me on that. 

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