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Who really hired the catspaw?


Aebram
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11 hours ago, Aebram said:

The Martin does sometimes conceal characters' thoughts about critical moments.  For example, we know nothing of what Tyrion was thinking at the Purple Wedding when he dumped out the last of Joffrey's wine, or when he told Jaime, during his escape from the dungeons, that he had killed Joffrey.  And both of those happened in chapters that were written from Tyrion's POV.

If you think Joffrey did it, how do you think he found and hired the catspaw? And why would he need to provide a weapon?

But the thing is that Tyrion had no idea there was poison in the wine, so his thoughts did not matter. He did not know there was entire plot of assassination. And he said he did it to Jaime as a last "screw you".

When Tyrion figures it out in SOS, he describes a most likely scenario of the catspaw being a camp follower when Robert came North, and the weapon was simply something Joffrey found among his father's things. I believed it, because it makes sense with how Joffrey is. 

I doubt this plot point will come back either way tho and it seems like to George it is resolved.

Edited by Raven Princling
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On 12/9/2022 at 3:23 PM, John Suburbs said:

And when they reached the Trident and there was still no word of Bran's death, Joff took the opportunity to use Cersei's plan to slut-shame Sansa on their little date to kill her instead. But fortunately they ran into Arya and Micah.

Erm, no.

On 12/9/2022 at 2:38 AM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can agree the Joffrey reveal wasn't exactly satisfying, but I chalk this up to shoddy execution on GRRM's part. I don't think this plot thread is coming back at any point.

Indeed.  He's said that the readership have had plenty of time to come up with solutions to mysteries that they find more satisfying than his own plot resolutions.  This is a prime example.  It's a little underwhelming but actually better than LF being some evil genius behind everything bad or destabilising that happens in Westeros.  There are plenty of other actors spreading chaos or conflict for their own reasons - Balon, Euron, Theon, Roose, Ramsay, Walder Frey, Doran, Arianne, Cersei, and in this case Joffrey.

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Joffrey . 

I understand why most people find this conclusion dissatisfying . the whole catspaw story line is the most plot driving factor in all the books . it's fair to assume when George was writing aGoT back in the day , he might not have thought of all the details and conceivability of the plan ,making it come off as sloppy.  he may have only thought of the outcome which is basically the events of aSoIaF . whether it was an afterthought , a retcon or the original plan , I personally think Joffrey as the plotter is the smartest answer to the Catspaw Mystery . he's a sadist and  the prince, and annoyance seems reason enough for this character to order murder. besides, he may be the likeliest character to toss a Valyrian steel dagger to a random guy and doesn't recognize it . 

that said, as much as I believe this mystery to be as good as solved in the books , I think if George decides to revisit it , Cersei could be a potential candidate . her denial in front of Jaimie aside , in the case of Blue Bard , Margery and Melara, there are occasions of self-injected delusion and denial in Feast to show she might deny her involvement .

 

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3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Erm, no.

Yes, the whole thing was a setup. Cersei only wanted to slut-shame Sansa to scotch the betrothal -- thus the fact that they were allowed to go off alone, and the hard riding, and the wine . . .   Joffrey was going to kill her, probably by drowning her in the river, because he thought this was necessary to protect his crown. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, the whole thing was a setup. Cersei only wanted to slut-shame Sansa to scotch the betrothal -- thus the fact that they were allowed to go off alone, and the hard riding, and the wine . . .   Joffrey was going to kill her, probably by drowning her in the river, because he thought this was necessary to protect his crown. 

Still no.  His actions afterwards hardly bear this out.  He was just showing off.  And he can't take his drink (unsurprising as he's a teenager), something we see again at his wedding.  Under the influence his true character emerges -  arrogant and cruel.

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15 hours ago, Raven Princling said:

I doubt this plot point will come back either way tho and it seems like to George it is resolved.

That's certainly possible.  But has he ever actually said or written that?

The murder of Jon Arryn occurred at the very beginning of the story -- before it started, actually.  And we learned who did it at the very end of "Storm," some 3000 pages later.  By that measure, I don't think we can assume that this one will go unsolved

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7 hours ago, Aebram said:

I don't think we can assume that this one will go unsolved

But it is resolved.  It's like the "Dany isn't a real Targaryen because of the lemon tree" argument - a vague feeling of dissatisfaction with one anecdotal circumstance turns things on their head. 

The identity of Jon Arryn's killer was deliberately confused by LF and Lysa lying and leaving a false trail.  In contrast both Jaime and Tyrion independently come to the conclusion that it was Joffrey and when Tyrion makes a veiled insinuation to Joffrey he reacts uneasily.  Maybe that's not watertight or clear enough for some people but it's how the author chose to show it without the smoking gun of a confession like from Lysa (show don't tell).

What relevance does a presumed third party assassination have to the plot now?

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22 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Still no.  His actions afterwards hardly bear this out.  He was just showing off.  And he can't take his drink (unsurprising as he's a teenager), something we see again at his wedding.  Under the influence his true character emerges -  arrogant and cruel.

No that's not it. It's the fact that they were allowed to go off all by themselves in the first place. This simply does not happen, not even for Ned and Robert. It's far too dangerous. And Joffrey has a sworn shield who is honor-bound to protect him at all times who just went AWOL for the day just because Joff told him to back away from Sansa. And when Joff did get hurt, and could have been killed, Cersei is flipping mad at everyone and everything involved, and even takes it out on the wolf who was not involved, but not a peep about the man whose job, his only job, is to prevent this exact thing from happening.

And, of course, we first learn that Sansa hates horses and has very little experience at riding, but there she is bouncing overland on her common mare while Joff tears ahead on his courser, which is a horse bred for speed. And what do we later learn Cersei believes happens to young girl's bodies when they go in for hard riding?

There's more, but this was a setup, clear as day.

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14 hours ago, Aebram said:

 But has he ever actually said or written that?

Before the release of ASOS, George said that we would find out who sent the catspaw in the book. In ASOS, both Jaime and Tyrion come to the conclusion that it was Joffrey and no new information about the case has been given since then. 

It's definitely an anticlimactic conclusion, but it does seem like the correct one.

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May I respectfully suggest that the questions around Sansa be moved to a separate topic? It's getting rather confusing with the two threads being intermixed.

Edited by Aebram
My tablet wrote "Santa" when I said "Sansa"
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2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's definitely an anticlimactic conclusion, but it does seem like the correct one.

If you think Joffrey did it, how do you think he found and hired the catspaw? And why would he need to provide a weapon?

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9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The identity of Jon Arryn's killer was deliberately confused by LF and Lysa lying and leaving a false trail.  In contrast both Jaime and Tyrion independently come to the conclusion that it was Joffrey and when Tyrion makes a veiled insinuation to Joffrey he reacts uneasily.  Maybe that's not watertight or clear enough for some people but it's how the author chose to show it without the smoking gun of a confession like from Lysa (show don't tell).

What relevance does a presumed third party assassination have to the plot now?

Tyrion suspected Joffrey, but couldn't think of a reason why.  Jaime thought of a reason why, but I've already shown that it's not sound.  There's no evidence that Joffrey was eager for approval from King Robert.

Regarding your final question about relevance, I will suggest that the murder of John Arryn had no relevance by the time GRRM revealed it.  So it seems reasonable to think that he may do the same for Joffrey.  Perhaps the truth will come out during Cersei's trial, if she did indeed do it.

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On 12/9/2022 at 8:21 AM, Evolett said:

I tend to think it wasn't a mere boast and that Joff had made acquaintance with Valyrian Steel. If so, how?

Ned's execution, preformed with the Valyrian Steel blade Ice. Joff even uses the executioners stroke on Tyrion's gift of books.

In my opinion it was Mance, the shadowcat, who sent the catspaw and burned the Winterfell Library before returning north of the Wall to dig in the Frostfangs and gather the Wildlings. He was there, had motive, means and a bag of silver.

"The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. "I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."

Mance fell in with the King's company, and the Valyrian dagger was likely in the baggage train.

"And when he did not, you knew your danger was worse than ever, so you gave your catspaw a bag of silver to make certain Bran would never wake."
"Did I now?" Jaime lifted his cup and took a long swallow. "I won't deny we talked of it, but you were with the boy day and night, your maester and Lord Eddard attended him frequently, and there were guards, even those damned direwolves . . . it would have required cutting my way through half of Winterfell. And why bother, when the boy seemed like to die of his own accord?"

Mance had reason to see a Stark of Winterfell dead, cause dissention in the south (sending the catspaw with the king's dagger), get into the Winterfell Library, and might even have seen it as a mercy.

"North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."

 

Edited by Mourning Star
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2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Before the release of ASOS, George said that we would find out who sent the catspaw in the book. In ASOS, both Jaime and Tyrion come to the conclusion that it was Joffrey and no new information about the case has been given since then. 

It's definitely an anticlimactic conclusion, but it does seem like the correct one.

Some readers have apparently forgotten that the story is not over.  There are at two more books to go, with a total page count that will probably equal five or six conventional novels.  I don't think we should assume that we have already been given the answers to all the questions.

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1 minute ago, Aebram said:

Some readers have apparently forgotten that the story is not over.  There are at two more books to go, with a total page count that will probably equal five or six conventional novels.  I don't think we should assume that we have already been given the answers to all the questions.

GRRM said that we would find out the answer in ASOS.

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26 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

GRRM said that we would find out the answer in ASOS.

It is in ASOS that we find out Mance was there.

"The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

I would go so far as to say that this was GRRMs plan from the start too! It always surprises me how early Mance's name shows up in the story on a reread, especially knowing he was in Winterfell for Robert's visit!

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.
"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."
"Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder.
Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."
"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.
His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

Edited by Mourning Star
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10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

What relevance does a presumed third party assassination have to the plot now?

Mance Rayder is (presumably) alive and in Winterfell.

What was Mance digging for in the Frostfangs? Did he find it? Is there a connection to the rare old information that burned, or was stolen from, Winterfell's Library?

How would the knowledge that Mance tried to have Bran killed impact his relationship with Jon?

What game are you playing, priestess? Did you have some other task for Mance?

Edited by Mourning Star
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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Mance didn't have access to Robert's armory, though.

Tyrion presumes the dagger was in the baggage train, not an armory. 

Robert had come to Winterfell with a long tail of knights and retainers, a huge wheelhouse, and a baggage train. No doubt some diligent servant had made certain that the king's weapons went with him, in case he should desire any of them.

I obviously cannot provide a perfect explanation, only what we get from Mance himself. I won't pretend this theory can be declared fact, but it does seem to me the best explanation for what we know. I think Mance stole the dagger from the baggage train, maybe after a song and a few rounds of drinks, which doesn't seem remarkably more difficult to me than the rest of his adventure.

"The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. "I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."
"Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.
"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"

If I'm waxing poetic, I think that where Bael stole Lord Stark's future (his only daughter, and by extension grandson), Mance stole Lord Stark's past, the knowledge of the library, and now he is back in Winterfell, possibly with access to the crypts:

"To see these crypts. Where are they, m'lord? Would you show me?" Holly toyed with a strand of her hair, coiling it around her little finger. "Deep and dark, they say. A good place for touching. All the dead kings watching."
"Did Abel send you to me?"
"Might be. Might be I sent myself. But if it's Abel you're wanting, I could bring him. He'll sing m'lord a sweet song."
Every word she said persuaded Theon that this was all some ploy. But whose, and to what end? What could Abel want of him? The man was just a singer, a pander with a lute and a false smile. He wants to know how I took the castle, but not to make a song of it. The answer came to him. He wants to know how we got in so he can get out. Lord Bolton had Winterfell sewn up tight as a babe's swaddling clothes. No one could come or go without his leave. He wants to flee, him and his washerwoman. Theon could not blame him, but even so he said, "I want no part of Abel, or you, or any of your sisters. Just leave me be."

But, if you think the dagger was kept in the Winterfell armory, which I suppose is possible, I would suggest that Bran may have told us a way in:

The howling chased him all the way up the tree, until finally he jumped off onto the armory roof and out of sight.

...

The best way was to start from the godswood, shinny up the tall sentinel, and cross over the armory and the guards hall, leaping roof to roof, barefoot so the guards wouldn't hear you overhead.

...

He liked the birds: the crows in the broken tower, the tiny little sparrows that nested in cracks between the stones, the ancient owl that slept in the dusty loft above the old armory. Bran knew them all.

Edited by Mourning Star
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