Jump to content

Who really hired the catspaw?


Aebram
 Share

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

But this is long after Tyrion returned to KL quite safe and sound.  If he was still a prisoner in The Eyrie I could see why she might want to hide it from him but not at the time Jaime talks to her.  At that point Tyrion is a convicted regicide and parricide and Cersei asks Jaime to kill him for her.  I don't see her worrying about his reaction to her having put Tyrion at risk, however inadvertently.  And after all she would have been protecting Jaime and herself by trying to get rid of the witness to their incest.

Jaime is seeking for a justification why Tyrion would murder Joffrey.

She knows Jaime has a fondness and weakness for Tyrion that is in her opinion irrational.

5 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

your son is murdered by your partner's brother.  Are you really going to worry your partner might get angry with you over something you may have done that put him at risk a few years ago or are you going to be cursing that he wasn't killed before he could harm your son?  If your partner is more angry about you accidentally putting his brother at risk (he survived unharmed) than he is about the murder of your son you are 100% getting a new partner.

I'm not a narcissist, not a pathological liar and don't have a brother who's always had my other brother's back. You approach Cersei as a rational normal person. She isn't. She never was.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Let me guess, you sent the catspaw after the "true king"?

Stannis? The true king? What a joke! 

I only have one true king, the Peach King, the best dressed in Westeros, someone who knows how to enjoy themselves and isn't an entitled puritanical party pooper!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Cersei is not honest I give you.  But that doesn't support Cersei sent the catspaw and it certainly doesn't outweigh the textual explanation the author gives us with both barrels.

I see your point, I really do. Ironically enough, the "both barrels" aspect of it is one reason why I don't trust it. If an author writes a mystery subplot into a story, does it make sense that he will have some characters simply blurt out the answer? It seems too obvious. It seems like it could be a misdirection.

And, if I may strain the analogy a bit, those barrels may be loaded with blanks. I'm reminded of this moment from Arya's training at the House of Black and White.  Excuse the big snips.

Quote

“And what three new things do you know that you did not know when last you left us?” 

“... The Sealord is still sick ... Tormo Fregar will be the new sealord.” 
“Is that what they are saying at the Inn of the Green Eel?” 
“Yes.” 
The kindly man took a bite of his egg ... "At other inns other names are being bruited about, never doubt ... What three new things do you know , that you did not know before?” 
“I know that some men are saying that Tormo Fregar will surely be the new sealord,” she answered. “Some drunken men.” 
“Better ..." (ADWD 45)

 

Similarly, we know that some men (and one woman) are saying that Joffrey hired the catspaw. And at least one of them is drunk. None of them actually saw any of it. None of them have any evidence beyond inferences from remarks such as "send a dog to kill a dog" and "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel."

That dagger, and the crime in which it was used, had a huge influence on the story. Without them, Cat wouldn't have gone to Kings Landing. She wouldn't have encountered and abducted Tyrion on her way home. The Lannister forces wouldn't have attacked the Riverlands. Such an important plot element ought to have a strong resolution, not just a few characters guessing at it.

You may not agree that Cersei did it. But I think it's clear that the evidence for Joffrey is not nearly as clear-cut as many readers seem to think.

Edited by Aebram
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Aebram said:

I see your point, I really do. Ironically enough, the "both barrels" aspect of it is one reason why I don't trust it. If an author writes a mystery subplot into a story, does it make sense that he will have some characters simply blurt out the answer? It seems too obvious. It seems like it could be a misdirection.

And, if I may strain the analogy a bit, those barrels may be loaded with blanks. I'm reminded of this moment from Arya's training at the House of Black and White.  Excuse the big snips.

Similarly, we know that some men (and one woman) are saying that Joffrey hired the catspaw. And at least one of them is drunk. None of them actually saw any of it. None of them have any evidence beyond inferences from remarks such as "send a dog to kill a dog" and "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel."

That dagger, and the crime in which it was used, had a huge influence on the story. Without them, Cat wouldn't have gone to Kings Landing. She wouldn't have encountered and abducted Tyrion on her way home. The Lannister forces wouldn't have attacked the Riverlands. Such an important plot element ought to have a strong resolution, not just a few characters guessing at it.

You may not agree that Cersei did it. But I think it's clear that the evidence for Joffrey is not nearly as clear-cut as many readers seem to think.

I may doubt Cersei's claim Robert said anything remotely as she claims he did to Jaime, but I do think Joffrey did the catspaw hiring and the dagger. The bag of silver, the fancy dagger and some freerider is sloppy work of a spoiled brat, who believes himsef far more clever than he actually is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jaime is seeking for a justification why Tyrion would murder Joffrey.

She knows Jaime has a fondness and weakness for Tyrion that is in her opinion irrational.

So your view is that it was Cersei that uttered the line about it being a mercy to kill Bran / putting down injured animals etc leading to Joffrey hiring the catspaw?

I mean it's possible and she's blaming Robert just like she blames her maid for "shrinking" her dress in the wash rather than acknowledging her middle-age spread.

But to think she would consider Jaime would be angry with her for an action that indirectly led to Tyrion being in danger that he came through unscathed is a pretty light straw against the pretty heavy bale of Tyrion having (as she believes) murdered her and Jaime's son.  I just don't see a reason for her to lie in this scenario.

If she did send the catspaw then she might have more reason to hide this from Jaime but Tyrion having murdered her son outweighs this by far and makes it very hard to see why she would need to hide an action that was not intended to harm Tyrion and, though it made his life uncomfortable, did not.

If anything - and as  Jaime wonders - revealing that she did send the catspaw might give Tyrion a / another motive for killing Joffrey (to punish her rather than get revenge on Joffrey).  Which in turn would surely help to overcome Jaime's "strange affection" for Tyrion and help her to convince Jaime to kill him for her - as she later attempts to persuade him to do in White Sword Tower in return for a blow job :blink:

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jaime is seeking for a justification why Tyrion would murder Joffrey.

She knows Jaime has a fondness and weakness for Tyrion that is in her opinion irrational.

I'm not a narcissist, not a pathological liar and don't have a brother who's always had my other brother's back. You approach Cersei as a rational normal person. She isn't. She never was.

She loathes Tyrion so cannot understand why Jaime does not as well.  That's not really that unusual.  Is she self-centred, manipulative and narcissistic?  Yes, but I don't see how lying here benefits her.  At best I can see that she (not Jaime) might think that the dagger became a reason for Tyrion to kill Joffrey so she disassociates herself from the event and projects blame onto Robert for inspiring Joffrey, similar to how she disassociates herself from Melara's "fall".

Interestingly you've made me consider that the catspaw plotline may still have some mileage - in the culmination of the Lannister siblings tangled relationship.  I still think it unlikely though: Cersei accepting responsibility for inspiring Joffrey to hire the assassin, leading to Tyrion's arrest, leading to Tyrion's murder of Joffrey, only really has relevance if Cersei admits it to herself as no one else can know this and it only really has relevance for Cersei's personal tragedy (as she morphs into Catelyn with all her children dying) because no one else gives a damn about Joffrey. 

This doesn't seem likely and the reveal about who did kill Joffrey is likely to have more of an impact on their relationship.

Cersei is not "normal" as in "well-adjusted" but neither is she irrational (unless you're positing her misuse of power as a secret Targ developing full-blown Targ madness rather than a standard case of megalomania?).

3 hours ago, Aebram said:

Ironically enough, the "both barrels" aspect of it is one reason why I don't trust it. If an author writes a mystery subplot into a story, does it make sense that he will have some characters simply blurt out the answer? It seems too obvious. It seems like it could be a misdirection.

Such an important plot element ought to have a strong resolution, not just a few characters guessing at it.

That's a stretch.  You seem to be looking for reasons to reject the text rather than assessing what the author is trying to do.  If he wants to misdirect then Tyrion's conclusion is enough.  Instead he gives us two pov characters who come to the same conclusion.  No, there's no trial or smoking gun, no deathbed confession, but that doesn't mean we should assume what the author shows us and then reinforces with a second confirmation is false.

He's on the record as saying that readers might come up with solutions that were more pleasing than his own and this seems exactly what he has in mind.  I feel you simply don't like the solution or the reveal while a deeply-layered and complex scenario planned years in advance and still hidden (the enigma of Mance Raydar) seems more satisfying.  Whether you feel the solution ought to be stronger or more satisfying this is what he came up with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

But to think she would consider Jaime would be angry with her for an action that indirectly led to Tyrion being in danger that he came through unscathed is a pretty light straw against the pretty heavy bale of Tyrion having (as she believes) murdered her and Jaime's son.  I just don't see a reason for her to lie in this scenario.

I'm pretty sure that Jaime cares more for Tyrion than he does for Joffrey. And Cersei knows this. Jaime loved her, and was the seed provider, but he was never allowed to form a bond with them. The sole son he just tried to become some type of father figure to was Tommen, right before Cersei sent him away to the RL.

Heck, even after Tyrion lies that he killed Joffrey, when Jaime asks, Jaime still helps him to escape.

And no, Cersei is not a rational person. Just read the whole Loras and Margaery stuff: short sighted foolery for long term gains. What the heck did she expect would happen with Melaria? Stealing castles from families for the treasury, and messing with the heirs of your ally... yeah. That worked out great for Aerys II, and you cannot say he was rational.

Edited by sweetsunray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/29/2023 at 3:00 PM, sweetsunray said:

I'm pretty sure that Jaime cares more for Tyrion than he does for Joffrey. And Cersei knows this. Jaime loved her, and was the seed provider, but he was never allowed to form a bond with them. The sole son he just tried to become some type of father figure to was Tommen, right before Cersei sent him away to the RL.

True but Joffrey is Cersei's son so it's not so much pitting Jaime's love for Tyrion against his love for Joffrey as against his love for Cersei.  And murdering her son (as is believed) is surely a gamechanger if there was any doubt as to whether Jaime was going to ride off into exile with Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

True but Joffrey is Cersei's son so it's not so much pitting Jaime's love for Tyrion against his love for Joffrey as against his love for Cersei.  And murdering her son (as is believed) is surely a gamechanger if there was any doubt as to whether Jaime was going to ride off into exile with Tyrion.

It wasn't much of a gamechanger when Tyrion lied he killed Joffrey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It wasn't much of a gamechanger when Tyrion lied he killed Joffrey

Actually it does mark their estrangement and Jaime turns his back on him for good.  I can't think of him regarding Tyrion either fondly or with regret after this.

He's not putting Tyrion before Cersei here in any case which seems to be the heart of whether Cersei would need to lie to him or not.  I still can't see that she does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Actually it does mark their estrangement and Jaime turns his back on him for good.  I can't think of him regarding Tyrion either fondly or with regret after this.

He's not putting Tyrion before Cersei here in any case which seems to be the heart of whether Cersei would need to lie to him or not.  I still can't see that she does.

He's not putting Cersei before Tyrion either. He's choosing Tommen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

He's not putting Cersei before Tyrion either. He's choosing Tommen.

Ultimately.  And only maybe - as part of trying to become a better person.  But he's at Riverrun not safeguarding Tommen from Cersei's influence.

But when Cersei denies she had anything to do with the dagger I don't think she is lying and doing it out of a fear Jaime will choose Tyrion or Tommen over her.  Tyrion's transgression is far too great and outweighs anything else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/25/2023 at 5:07 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As far as I know, GRRM hasn't really commented on it often since ASOS was released either.

I did find this from 2008, at least.

Quote

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

[Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?]

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden inflouence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As I understood it, GRRM was implying that Joffrey did it out of his own volition? 

Yep, that's my understanding as well.

Regarding the "hidden influence" mentioned by GRRM, a theory is that Littlefinger had already convinced Joffrey to have Ned executed prior to the confession at the Great Sept, rather than it being a spur-of-the-moment decision by Joffrey.

ACOK Tyrion II:

Quote

"It does seem my sister was telling the truth about Stark's death. We have my nephew to thank for that madness."

"King Joffrey gave the command. Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn Payne carried it out, swiftly, without hesitation ..."

"... almost as if they had expected it. Yes, we have been over this ground before, without profit. A folly."

and

Quote

Varys smiled. "Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...

Good morrow to all,

I think I found another clue to this mystery. A discussion on a different topic motivated me to reread the conversation between Illyrio and Varys, as overheard by Arya in the dungeons of the Red Keep.

Quote

“… found one bastard,” one said. “The rest will come soon. A day, two days, a fortnight …”

“And when he learns the truth, what will he do?” a second voice asked in the liquid accents of the Free Cities.

“The gods alone know,” the first voice said ... “The fools tried to kill his son, and what’s worse, they made a mummer’s farce of it. He’s not a man to put that aside. I warn you, the wolf and lion will soon be at each other’s throats, whether we will it or no.”  (Game chapter 32).

This is all rather vague, but we can draw a few interesting conclusions from it. The reference to bastards tells us that Varys is concerned that Ned will soon learn the truth about Cersei's children.  The reference to the wolf and the lion tells us that, when Ned learns the truth, he will have anger towards House Lannister. Therefore, "the fools" who tried to kill Bran must be Lannisters, or Lannister allies.

So Varys thinks that the attempt on Bran's life was motivated by a desire to keep Cersei's secret, not by Joffrey feeling some childish resentment towards Bran. Varys may be mistaken, of course; but he's not a man to bet against.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Aebram said:

So Varys thinks that the attempt on Bran's life was motivated by a desire to keep Cersei's secret, not by Joffrey feeling some childish resentment towards Bran. Varys may be mistaken, of course; but he's not a man to bet against.

 

Varys in the actual text you quote reveals himself explicitly to not be omniscient. He can only guess based on the information he has that the Lannisters did it to try and hide their secret, because to him that makes the most sense. But he doesn't actually know.

Can someone explain to me what information in ASoS will lead to any conclusion other than Joffrey? George said that was the book that would answer the question, and all the information we get there is for Joffrey -- his knowledge of Valyrian steel, his awkwardness when Tyrion describes the dagger to him, the information about Joffrey overhearing Robert. 

Edited by Ran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...