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Who really hired the catspaw?


Aebram
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I don't have an issue with Tyrion's theory that Joffrey did it. The sloppy nature of the operation, choosing some random crook to carry out the hit and selecting a conspicuous weapon, point to someone inexperienced. And both Robert and Cersei said it would be a mercy if Bran died. So Joffrey had double parental 'approval'.

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53 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't have an issue with Tyrion's theory that Joffrey did it. The sloppy nature of the operation, choosing some random crook to carry out the hit and selecting a conspicuous weapon, point to someone inexperienced. And both Robert and Cersei said it would be a mercy if Bran died. So Joffrey had double parental 'approval'.

There was a convincing argument that it was Mance some weeks back. I believe it is Joffrey who did it, but only because it was supposed to be Mance that who hired but that line, like so many others, got abandoned and was dumped on Joffrey.

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8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

It is only in deference to privileged information that this mystery is considered solved.

In your opinion.  Many people find the text quite clear.  The reason the "privileged information" is quoted is to show the conspiracists what GRRM told people in advance he would do.  If you're still not happy then, sure,

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

we may as well enjoy our speculations!

Go right ahead.  But "while you wait" I have to warn you you are doing yourself a disservice B)

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6 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

In your opinion.  Many people find the text quite clear.  The reason the "privileged information" is quoted is to show the conspiracists what GRRM told people in advance he would do.  If you're still not happy then, sure,

Go right ahead.  But "while you wait" I have to warn you you are doing yourself a disservice B)

I'm not sure, but I think when @Mourning Star talks about 'privileged information' he means information @Ran has had access to that we hadn't, and not the report by Jeff or others in the SSMs. 

I did address this in a previous reply, but i don't think Mourning Star has clarifed whether that's indeed what he meant. I said I didn't think Ran was sayng anything based on some secret info we don't have access to, but rather just the text and the SSMs. I could be wrong,

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4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't have an issue with Tyrion's theory that Joffrey did it. The sloppy nature of the operation, choosing some random crook to carry out the hit and selecting a conspicuous weapon, point to someone inexperienced. And both Robert and Cersei said it would be a mercy if Bran died. So Joffrey had double parental 'approval'.

The last time Joffrey tried to impress his dad by killing something (the kitten) he was beaten, so he would not care to appease Robert. Supplying a cat's paw with a dagger is asanine, the dude got sent to get deal with a crippled child, his hands would have served well enough. Also Tyrion is drunk when he deduces this, and our POV characters rarely figure out a mystery correctly, they are almost always wrong. 

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6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure, but I think when @Mourning Star talks about 'privileged information' he means information @Ran has had access to that we hadn't, and not the report by Jeff or others in the SSMs. 

I did address this in a previous reply, but i don't think Mourning Star has clarifed whether that's indeed what he meant. I said I didn't think Ran was sayng anything based on some secret info we don't have access to, but rather just the text and the SSMs. I could be wrong,

I thought I was pretty clear, but I can try again.

I've never seen a public statement from GRRM that clearly says Joff sent the catspaw.

There are ancient vague quotes about figuring it out, but I think many consider the catspaw case closed because of the perception that those with privileged information have said it is so. I've certainly been told as much many times, and this thread is evidence of how adamant some people seem to be about it. 

I think the text can and should speak for itself, and I think there is a better case to be made from the text that Mance was behind the catspaw than Joff. Others may disagree, and I welcome them making such a case.

And, that's not to say I can be sure, it's obviously just a theory, and I'm not claiming ownership of the theory, I think it's significant enough to have been apparent to many readers.

But, I am always surprised by how much discussion is suppressed about this topic, and I think it's a shame.

Edited by Mourning Star
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2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I thought I was pretty clear, but I can try again.

You were clear w/o answering what I specifically asked: by privileged information you mean information only people w/ direct and private access to Martin wtould have, correct? To make it even clearer, you do not mean anything in the SSMs or interviews to be privileged information, right? I’m only asking because I’m genuinely curious about this point specifically. 

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

<snip>.

But, I am always surprised by how much discussion is suppressed about this topic, and I think it's a shame.

I don’t know if I’d say the discussion is being suppressed, I think that’s a bit extreme. But just as you have every right to discuss alternative ideas, those who believe this particular mystery has been solved already also have the right to express their opinions. Just my 2p.

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8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't have an issue with Tyrion's theory that Joffrey did it. The sloppy nature of the operation, choosing some random crook to carry out the hit and selecting a conspicuous weapon, point to someone inexperienced. And both Robert and Cersei said it would be a mercy if Bran died. So Joffrey had double parental 'approval'.

But if Joffrey did it to win the approval of his parents, why didn't he tell either of them?

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I think it would be a bit out of character for Mance to sent someone to kill an innocent nine-year-old boy. He's not a paragon of virtue but I don't think he's meant to be that villainous either.

4 hours ago, Jekse said:

The last time Joffrey tried to impress his dad by killing something (the kitten) he was beaten, so he would not care to appease Robert.

He would still care to appease Cersei though. And it's not like he's going to proudly show Robert Bran's dead body like he did with the Cat. Despite that incident Joffrey still thinks highly of Robert:

Quote

He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

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4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But if Joffrey did it to win the approval of his parents, why didn't he tell either of them?

You have a point. Maybe he didn't do it for approval, he did it because he erroneously thought that it was the right thing to do because they both endorsed views to the nature of that killing Bran would be a good thing.

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

You were clear w/o answering what I specifically asked: by privileged information you mean information only people w/ direct and private access to Martin wtould have, correct? To make it even clearer, you do not mean anything in the SSMs or interviews to be privileged information, right? I’m only asking because I’m genuinely curious about this point specifically. 

I haven't seen an SSM or interview in which GRRM says Joff sent the catspaw. If it exists please do share. The ones I've seen are old and vague (in my opinion).

If information is not public it is privileged. I've been repeatedly told that this case is confirmed as closed based on some perception of this privileged information. And you know what, maybe it has been confirmed in private, but I've been unable to find any publicly available quote of evidence of it.

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t know if I’d say the discussion is being suppressed, I think that’s a bit extreme. But just as you have every right to discuss alternative ideas, those who believe this particular mystery has been solved already also have the right to express their opinions. Just my 2p.

I am fully in support of anyone expressing any theory they are using the text to support.

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7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

You have a point. Maybe he didn't do it for approval, he did it because he erroneously thought that it was the right thing to do because they both endorsed views to the nature of that killing Bran would be a good thing.

This whole catspaw thing reminds me of the old WWF storyline where it's revealed that Rikishi was the one who ran over Stone Cold, which didn't make a lot of sense.

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4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

This whole catspaw thing reminds me of the old WWF storyline where it's revealed that Rikishi was the one who ran over Stone Cold, which didn't make a lot of sense.

I wouldn't know, I have never seen a single WWF match and I know next to nothing about wrestling.

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8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it would be a bit out of character for Mance to sent someone to kill an innocent nine-year-old boy. He's not a paragon of virtue but I don't think he's meant to be that villainous either.

First, I think it's a fine line between hero and villain.

"He was the best of us," said the Halfhand, "and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey."

Oftentimes I think the difference comes down to motive, and perspective.

Mance and the Starks are natural enemies, and explicitly such, right from the start of the series. Wildlings have no love for Starks, and the Starks are sworn to take the life of a deserter. 

For eight thousand years the men of House Stark had lived and died to protect their people against such ravagers and reavers . . . and bastard-born or no, the same blood ran in his veins. Bran and Rickon are still at Winterfell besides. Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik, Old Nan, Farlen the kennelmaster, Mikken at his forge and Gage by his ovens . . . everyone I ever knew, everyone I ever loved. If Jon must slay a man he half admired and almost liked to save them from the mercies of Rattleshirt and Harma Dogshead and the earless Magnar of Thenn, that was what he meant to do.

Would Mance kill a child in the name of saving his people?

What is the life of one boy against a kingdom?

Everything.

I like Mance, but I don't think he's another Ned, and I do think he would kill a child if he thought the ends justified it.

Edit: In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile.

Edited by Mourning Star
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26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't understand why Mance would have to kill Bran to save his people though, rather than say Ned, the ruling lord, or Robb the heir.

I'm not saying Mance wouldn't have killed Ned or Robb if he thought he could get away with it. They would certainly kill him.

As it turns out, the catspaw failed to kill a crippled boy in a bed even after Ned and the King went south, and I think the intention was to cause strife south of the Wall, the king's dagger being found used to kill the Stark's son, which is exactly what happened. Mance was taking advantage of a perceived opportunity, and meanwhile could investigate then set fire to the Winterfell Library while everyone would assume it was just a diversion from the assassin, and not the other way around.

Most every character seemed to expect Bran to die anyway.

Also, killing a crippled boy could be construed as a mercy, like the catspaw says, or like what Val says about Shireen.

"It is not always mortal in children."
"North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."

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Just now, Mourning Star said:

This is what I mean.

If you were actually being suppressed, you wouldn't actually be posting that you were being suppressed, as the thread would have been closed already.

That people are finding these outlandish theories ridiculous or nonsensical is something they're allowed to say. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

It is not always mortal in children."
"North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."

Do you have any instance to offer where they talk about crippled children? Because this example w/ Val doesn’t fit. It’s apples and wheelbarrows.

Heres the full quote: 

“Greyscale.”

  “The grey death is what we call it.”

  “It is not always mortal in children.”

  “North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

  This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. “Princess Shireen is the queen’s only child.”

  “I pity both of them. The child is not clean.”

  “If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne.”

  “Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms.”

  “The maesters say greyscale is not—”

  “The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!”

  “She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—”

  “I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Val seized his arm. “I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl.”

  Jon shook her hand away. “She is not dead.”

  “She is. Her mother cannot see it. 

“Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there.” She walked away from him, stopped, turned back. “I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster.”

  “If I can, I will.”

  “Do. You owe me a debt, Jon Snow.”

And Val isn’t necessarily being merciful, she’s worried about the greyscale spreading. That’s why she wants monster far from Shireen.

And there’s this one as well:

ASoS, Jon VI

"A hundred and twenty, and well armed for wildlings. Bronze armor, some bits of steel. How many men are left here?"

"Forty odd," said Donal Noye. "The crippled and infirm, and some green boys still in training."

This quote clearly shows that the free folk have several crippled individuals living among them and it really doesn’t seem to be an issue. 

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