How and where the northmen should build a western harbor and fleet ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Unlike the eastern coast which has a big harbor city in White Harbor, which has been built and is run by House Manderly, the western part of the North lacks a true harbor which could serve as a commercial hub for this part of the North and help the region logistics and economy and allows faster and closer trade with Lannisport, Oldtown and the Arbor.

Also while the Manderlys have started to build a fleet for the North in the White Knife with the Umbers' help, the western coast can't benefit from it before a long time given the very large detour the Manderly navy would have to go to the western northern coast, nor has harbors or shipyards to help host, maintain and repair these warships.

Unless a new harbor city is built on the North western half, in a sufficiently strategic location and close enough to towns and castles such as Barrowton, and after it a new fleet built with the purpose of defending this coastline from Ironborn and other would be invaders or pirates.

But where exactly should this new port be built ? And where the shipyard(s) should be located ?  What locations in this part of the North would be ideal in terms of defensive and logistical capacities  ? And how and where to build this western fleet whose goal would be to fight Ironborn raids and invasion attempts, and defend the western coastline ? How go give this fleet the captains, sailors and marines to maneuver and fight with these ships ?

And to whom should the Starks should give this new harbor to build and rule ?

Edited December 9, 2022 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

I’d say Saltspear or Cape Kracken. A small port there could be useful for trade from Oldtown and Lannisport. And if you had a fleet there it could defend against Ironborn.

[astarkchoice]

The issue of defending the north is its such a vast area , one port may not be enough.

We know there are fishermen all alomg the stoney shore that theon is originaly tasked to harass so there may be small existing ports there.

The issue is more the bizzare stark law on military fleet building than anything plus there woukd need to also be built fishing and trading  boats aplenty to help sustain these new ports.

Personaly id raise 2 military harbours 

1st one in the rills near blazewater bay to lead back to barrowtown and moat catlin and the other id let the wood rich bear islanders build (seems on map to have a natural inlet to build one in and theyd be glad of the extra protection from ironborn)

These would be 2 main ones but id invite all costal lords to build their own small fleets just as most in ither regions too..that way if each costal lord is only putting out a galley/dromomd or 2 it all adds up and it helps.remove the ironborns element of suprise.

Next to help keep these safe tall wooden towers to spy ironborn ships and small watchfires to act as lighthouse beacons all along the coast and to speed things along pay the already large productive white harbour to make warships/trading galleys and fishing boats  and bring them round to these new ports! 

 

Maybe a direct contract with bravos to build the ships fast in exchange for the one asset they jave a shortage of .....wood! In exchange for a fleet quickly built a longterm guarantee to northern lumber...shit kill 2 birds with kme stone and send a force north of the wall to cut back the enormous forrest comming close to the wall and send the lumber to the bravosi!!!

[Canon Claude]

You’d think Bear Island would have some kind of harbour and fleet to protect itself. 

[Alden Rothack]

12 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

You’d think Bear Island would have some kind of harbour and fleet to protect itself. 

I think it does have a habour and ships just no warships

[James Steller]

3 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

I think it does have a habour and ships just no warships

That still doesn't make sense, though. House Mormont lives on a wooded island which has frequently been targeted by the Ironborn. The Shields and the Arbor have their own fleets, as does Farman. Why shouldn't the Mormonts have their own warships?

[Tyrosh Lannister]

I think the western coastlines of the north are too unsuitable to build a harbor

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

That still doesn't make sense, though. House Mormont lives on a wooded island which has frequently been targeted by the Ironborn. The Shields and the Arbor have their own fleets, as does Farman. Why shouldn't the Mormonts have their own warships?

Most surely lack of wealth and trade compared to these islands.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

On 12/9/2022 at 5:03 PM, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I’d say Saltspear or Cape Kracken. A small port there could be useful for trade from Oldtown and Lannisport. And if you had a fleet there it could defend against Ironborn.

I would prefer Saltspear over Cape Kraken, due to its location being closer  to Barrowton, which is the most important town in the North after Winter Town and White Harbor, and to it being more strategic to defend Moat Cailin and the rest of the North. 

[Alden Rothack]

11 hours ago, James Steller said:

That still doesn't make sense, though. House Mormont lives on a wooded island which has frequently been targeted by the Ironborn. The Shields and the Arbor have their own fleets, as does Farman. Why shouldn't the Mormonts have their own warships?

the Arbour is twice the size and has probably twenty times the people and a hundred times the wealth

[Alden Rothack]

18 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I would prefer Saltspear over Cape Kraken, due to its location being closer  to Barrowton, which is the most important town in the North after Winter Town and White Harbor, and to it being more strategic to defend Moat Cailin and the rest of the North. 

both as they need more than a single harbour

[Corvo the Crow]

Wherever whores go. Whoops, wrong thread. I'd say Where Brandon the Shipwrights and Theon the Hungry Wolfs ships were located but their ships were probably longships like Ironborns. Western seaboard probably has no suitable places for a proper tradeharbor.

[James West]

The North is financially poor and their primitive cultural stage will not have the commerce to support another port.  The port will not have the traffic to thrive.  

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, James West said:

their primitive cultural stage

What primitive cultural stage? The main difference between the North and the rest of Westeros is religion. Other than that the North has identical feudal system, technology and institutions.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

both as they need more than a single harbour

There can't be two big ports in the Northern western coastline for the time being, both for trade and for a navy, though a smaller base for the northern fleet is still possible. 

[Lord of Brewtown]

14 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

I think the western coastlines of the north are too unsuitable to build a harbor

I think this is a primary factor.  I don't believe there are any deep water bays large enough to house a large fleet of ships.  I think you're stuck with smaller potential ports, that could maybe build up some docks, support smaller fishing/trading vessels or a couple of longships; but not multiple war galleys or larger trading cogs.  

examples:  some suggestions in this thread have been Cape Kraken and the Stoney Shore.  But, Cape Kraken/Flint's Finger geographically contains the Flint Cliffs - at leas insinuating the coastline here isn't friendly to creating a harbor/docks even if there is deeper water.  Theon's invasion via the Stoney Shore gave me the impression that there was a fairly shallow/gradual water shelf there (didn't they beach the ships?).  

 

That, combined with the expense of building the ships, docks, etc, seem to indicate that most Lords haven't been convinced that the cost is worth the benefit.  The impression I get is that at best, some Lords/castles could defend similar to the Mallisters with 5-6 longships and maybe 1-2 Galleys, if they had the wealth to spare.  

 

 

[Alden Rothack]

5 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There can't be two big ports in the Northern western coastline for the time being, both for trade and for a navy, though a smaller base for the northern fleet is still possible. 

there would need to be given the ports wouldn't be the equal of the ones in the east for quite some time

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, James West said:

The North is financially poor and their primitive cultural stage will not have the commerce to support another port.  The port will not have the traffic to thrive.  

A bridge in the middle of nowhere generates such revenue it makes the Frey’s wealthiest in Riverlands. You can bet that such a port would thrive with Iron Isles, Seagard and Westerlands all close by. Also First Men are far more progressive than Andals could ever hope to be.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What primitive cultural stage? The main difference between the North and the rest of Westeros is religion. Other than that the North has identical feudal system, technology and institutions.

They are even less dogmatic when it comes to religion so quite progressive there. Sure, unlike the seven worshipping southerners they still cling to things like guest right that Manderly doesn’t kill the Freys outright and kinslaying being bad that even Roose won’t do it but wouldn’t call these backwards, quite the opposite. 
First Men values are far ahead of time than Falsehoods of the Seven worshipping andouilles. First Men was so progressive they built the first university of Planetos. I suspect other major cities would also have such places but the backwards savage Andals blocked the way of progress with their  Fairytales of the Seven.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Craving Peaches]

31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I suspect other major cities would also have such places but the backwards savage Andals blocked the way of progress with their  Fairytales of the Seven

First Men had thousands of years before the Andals came along to construct more than one citadel. Can't blame the Andals for that.