Did the Valyrians have it coming with regards to the Doom?

[Craving Peaches]

So the other day there was a bit of a dispute on who in Westeros had it coming for whatever they did in the past. I think it's safe to say though, that whatever the Andals or the First Men or the Children of the Forest or the Ironborn did pales in comparison to the atrocities committed by the Valyrians. Not only were they slavers but the slaves were subject to unimaginable cruelty in being forced to mine until they died, they were also experimented on, probably used as sacrificial material etc. The Valyrians wiped out anyone who did not want to be subjugated. They are the worst of the worst in terms of the evils of the world as far as I can tell. It is up for debate whether they brought the Doom upon themselves by mining too deep or whether the FM did it or a combination of the two, however I think there is a strong 'divine retribution' component. Even if there are no real gods, it feels like the natural order got fed up with whatever the Valyrians were doing.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Oh yeah for sure. Especially if it was the FM that caused the Doom. Valyrians were essentially an empire of medieval fantasy Uber Nazis. If it wasn’t for the Doom, they likely wouldn’t be challenged ever. They were simply too powerful.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

If it wasn’t for the Doom, they likely wouldn’t be challenged ever. They were simply too powerful.

They could have collapsed due to infighting?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Pretty much, they have massacred, tortured, tortured or even eradicated countless people, treated their slaves in the most abominable way possible, destroyed many cultures and civilizations and it's implied that they did other unspeakable things with blood and fire magic.

I am sure that the Doom is the result of their own doing, perhaps a magic ritual or experiment they did to try to increase their power or find immortality or something else that backfired in the most spectacular and destructive way on them. It's also possibe that it's a coup attempt or internal civil war using too destructive and unstable magic that backfired which caused the doom. 

[hnv]

55 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They could have collapsed due to infighting?

I think they must have had some institutions to smooth disagreements between the big families. we know some families ere more dominant at times but we get no whiff of civil war.

 

Without the doom I wonder how long would have taken them to try take Westeros. Or Qarth and then Yi Ti

[Craving Peaches]

49 minutes ago, hnv said:

Or Qarth

Could it be implied from the dragon skeleton nearby that Quarth or the Qaathi have some potent Anti-Dragon measures? Perhaps that's why the Valyrians didn't try them.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

They could have collapsed due to infighting?

It’s possible but they literally lasted 4000 years before the Doom. If they could last that long, I think it’s likely they had some way to iron that shit out

[Tyrosh Lannister]

I believe in Karma.

I think as mentioned above there was a lot of infighting between the valyrian factions (bloodmages and dragonlords). Firemages who kept the 14 flames in check were killed. 14 flames go out of control and the whole region gets destroyed.

As to how the firemages and other high-profile opponents were killed, it would be really interesting if the valyrians had hired the faceless men of Braavos to carry them out! 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I'm assuming that thousands of slaves, servants, and merchants were also wiped as well though. So while the Doom was certainly written by the author as something the Valyrians brought down upon the world and themselves, I think it was more catastrophic tragedy rather than simply just deserts.

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I'm assuming that thousands of slaves, servants, and merchants were also wiped as well though.

The collateral damage would have been high. Remember that the Kindly Old Man said the slaves were praying for death, so it might have been or intended to have been a sort of sweet relief for them. Did the Valyrians have servants or just slaves?

[Corvo the Crow]

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

So the other day there was a bit of a dispute on who in Westeros had it coming for whatever they did in the past. I think it's safe to say though, that whatever the Andals or the First Men or the Children of the Forest or the Ironborn did pales in comparison to the atrocities committed by the Valyrians. Not only were they slavers but the slaves were subject to unimaginable cruelty in being forced to mine until they died, they were also experimented on, probably used as sacrificial material etc. The Valyrians wiped out anyone who did not want to be subjugated. They are the worst of the worst in terms of the evils of the world as far as I can tell. It is up for debate whether they brought the Doom upon themselves by mining too deep or whether the FM did it or a combination of the two, however I think there is a strong 'divine retribution' component. Even if there are no real gods, it feels like the natural order got fed up with whatever the Valyrians were doing.

They are also racial supremacists that have relations with their relatives because the blood must be pure or whatever.

They were probably able to keep their lines “pure” with magic since Mantarys people are twisted and monstrous and we have several such Targaryens after doom.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Did the Valyrians have servants or just slaves?

That I don't know for sure. I guess I was assuming the sorcerers they had could be an example of servants. Are sorcerous slaves possible? Or were they Valyrians themselves? I dunno.

In any event, real-world slaving societies usually had different levels of privilege/oppression, even among those who were not elites. Maybe the presence of dragons and blood-bonded riders would change things. Or maybe GRRM doesn't stew on such sociological considerations. Or both. 

[hnv]

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Could it be implied from the dragon skeleton nearby that Quarth or the Qaathi have some potent Anti-Dragon measures? Perhaps that's why the Valyrians didn't try them.

Well, Qarth isn't that far from Ghis, but Valyria turned West instead. And that's despite the fact that both Qarth and Yi Ti were far richer. Either Qarth bribed the Valyrians or they had other reasons. I think a coalition of Qarth and Yi Ti will yield quite a massive and formidable army. And with magic still kicking about they could take down Dragons as well. Valyria would have won but the cost might have been too much to them.

Still perplexing. Like how Tyrion says the Valyrians must have known of all the riches across from Dragonstone but still didn't invade. why? 

The riches to East are even greater but still they preferred expanding on the Rhoyne

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, hnv said:

Like how Tyrion says the Valyrians must have known of all the riches across from Dragonstone but still didn't invade. why?

I think they had a prophecy that their doom would come from the west or something.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

43 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think they had a prophecy that their doom would come from the west or something.

I’ve always liked the theory that Lannister gold paid the FM to initiate the Doom. Considering there was a well known prophecy in Valyria to avoid the Lannisters.

[StarkTullies]

On 12/10/2022 at 7:22 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I'm assuming that thousands of slaves, servants, and merchants were also wiped as well though. So while the Doom was certainly written by the author as something the Valyrians brought down upon the world and themselves, I think it was more catastrophic tragedy rather than simply just deserts.

That's what I think.  The Valyrian Empire was terrible, but not everyone living in it was terrible... and many victims of the Valyrian Empire (who actually survived) lived within the Valyrian Empire.  The innocent died with the guilty.  And I don't think that the entire upper class of Valyria is necessarily guilty just for the class they are born in.

Just like even though House Hoare was terrible, I still think that Aegon I was a mass-murdering tyrant for burning down Harrenhal.  Aegon killed Harren, but he murdered everyone else in the castle with him.

I am glad the treachery of the Valyrian Empire came to an end, but the peaceful idealist in me would rather that that the empire politically collapsed without everyone dying in the process.  I'm not sad about the dragons, though.  In real life I am sad about the extinction of any animal species, but in this fictional world where dragons are portrayed as winged WMD fire-demons, I am more than happy for them to go extinct.

I'm not sure what caused the Doom, and I think it is pretty unlikely that ASOIAF (if ever finished) will confirm.  I would be okay if "nothing" caused it: just a cataclysmic event like the extinction of the dinosaurs.  But in a world where magic does exist, it is quite possibly that their own sorcery to conjure up more fire demons backfired on them.  I don't think the Faceless Men have the ability to blow up an entire peninsula.

[Ser Leftwich]

“The bad end unhappily; the good, unluckily. That is what tragedy means.”
- Tom Stoppard -

Yes. This is still a book and GRRM writes fate. The Valyrians had it coming. They earned it.

[Gilbert Green]

What's the point of the question?  Are we including the peasants?  The women and children?

But yes, I'm sure that Valyria included quite a few Valyrians who had it coming.