Hero and Martyr: Bowen Marsh

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

It’s like you said, if they just don’t like Jon’s chapters then it’s ok. It’s preference. Personally I don’t enjoy Daenerys’ chapters at all. I find them dull, and I don’t have to think too much while reading them. But I’m not gonna pretend that she is some epitome of evil or the Mad Queen. She is the person in the right in her story arc, but it’s not hard to be morally superior to slavers.

You do get a similar forms of troll logic used against Daenerys as against Jon.

I've read arguments along the lines of "she committed genocide of innocent slavers";  "she stole the private property of the Good Masters of Astapor";  "she raped Irri";  "slavery is just their way of life.  Imagine if you were a slaver, and someone just came and seized your property."

[Craving Peaches]

41 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You do get a similar forms of troll logic used against Daenerys as against Jon.

Why are these arguments so stupid? If you don't like Daenerys and want to criticise her, there's actual stuff you can use like the torture of the Wineseller's daughters.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why are these arguments so stupid? If you don't like Daenerys and want to criticise her, there's actual stuff you can use like the torture of the Wineseller's daughters.

I honestly think some people just don't appreciate how bad their arguments are, if they dislike a character enough.

[Sandy Clegg]

These arguments are all basically the Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa problem 'writ small'. How can Azor Ahai be a hero if he plunges his sword into the heart of his true love? What possible 'greater good' can there be which justifies murder?  The fact that Bowen is sobbing as he kills Jon tells us that he is conflicted, so the parallel at least is clear. 

Now, either GRRM wants us to look as this question:

a) "real-world" morally (in which case it's never justified - unless you want to go down the well-trodden baby Hitler route again). In this case Bowen Marsh's arc should rightly end in his hanging or beheading. Kind of straightforward but not very interesting. Or ...

b) he wants to adopt a fantasy-genre approach, in which case death not being 'the end' for a character (living in weirwood net, warging etc.) means that we have to factor in the idea that Jon's spirit in death is somehow needed to achieve some heroic end which his physical body cannot. And perhaps Bowen Marsh is somehow a pawn in a grander scheme. How then do we judge him?

Only Bran currently has the ability to see past and future paths, which means he has a lot of weight on his shoulders if he is somehow masterminding things behind the scenes. And killing one's own brother would fit the Nissa Nissa narrative symbolically (killing one you love) if not literally (Jon is not female, and is not stabbed in the chest). So either this is a Nissa Nissa act writ small, a sign of things to come, or we are actually seeing the prophecy come true before our eyes. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Bowen served the Watch and Westeros when he got rid of Jon. He had to rid them of Jon for the greater good. Jon was no longer acting in the best interest of the Watch. Jon was basically using the Watch and abusing his authority to fight for the Starks.  I would not want Bowen harmed but rather rewarded for his loyal service to the Watch. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Bowen served the Watch and Westeros when he got rid of Jon. He had to rid them of Jon for the greater good. Jon was no longer acting in the best interest of the Watch. Jon was basically using the Watch and abusing his authority to fight for the Starks.  I would not want Bowen harmed but rather rewarded for his loyal service to the Watch. 

Greater good? Prove it; would you prefer being killed and made into a zombie by the Others, because Marsh would gladly abide for the wildlings.

[LongRider]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why are these arguments so stupid? If you don't like Daenerys and want to criticise her, there's actual stuff you can use like the torture of the Wineseller's daughters.

As a Sansa and SanSan fan I have weathered many, many trolls.  Just ignore the trolls, don't give them any air, or they will drive you crazy.    

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Bowen served the Watch and Westeros when he got rid of Jon. He had to rid them of Jon for the greater good. Jon was no longer acting in the best interest of the Watch. Jon was basically using the Watch and abusing his authority to fight for the Starks.  I would not want Bowen harmed but rather rewarded for his loyal service to the Watch. 

You are either trolling or just plain ignorant. Ramsay threatened to murder everyone at Castle Black if Jon didn’t take their side in the war.

the only thing Jon did that went against his vows was sending Mance after Arya, you rescue her from one of the most vile beings in the world. That villain!

 

Bowen is a bigoted piece of shit and hopefully gets Wun Wun’d in the next Wall chapter.

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Bowen is a bigoted piece of shit and hopefully gets Wun Wun’d in the next Wall chapter.

Wun Wun will make pomegranate juice.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Bowen served the Watch and Westeros when he got rid of Jon. He had to rid them of Jon for the greater good. Jon was no longer acting in the best interest of the Watch. Jon was basically using the Watch and abusing his authority to fight for the Starks.  I would not want Bowen harmed but rather rewarded for his loyal service to the Watch. 

Please return when you've read the book properly.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I don't think GRRM likes the character Bowen Marsh...but he didn't make him a Snidely Whiplash villain either. As noble as Jon's intentions were, he really did make some really poor decisions from the point of a Lord Commander. GRRM makes Bowen Marsh technically correct on a lot of the points, even if readers relate more easily to Jon (most of us do, anyway. I really don't get the hate). 

Jon struggled to reconcile his various duties and obligations--and he made some major blunders that culminated in his assassination. I imagine that he will go down a dark path upon his resurrection, but that ultimately he will pull back. By the end of the story, he'll be better equipped to reconcile his obligations with his heroic impulses.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I don't think GRRM likes the character Bowen Marsh...but he didn't make him a Snidely Whiplash villain either. As noble as Jon's intentions were, he really did make some really poor decisions from the point of a Lord Commander. GRRM makes Bowen Marsh technically correct on a lot of the points, even if readers relate more easily to Jon (most of us do, anyway. I really don't get the hate). 

Jon struggled to reconcile his various duties and obligations--and he made some major blunders that culminated in his assassination. I imagine that he will go down a dark path upon his resurrection, but that ultimately he will pull back. By the end of the story, I imagine he'll be better equipped to reconcile his obligations with his heroic impulses.

If Jon had stuck to tradition then the NW and the 7K would be doomed against the Others

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

If Jon had stuck to tradition then the NW and the 7K would be doomed against the Others

I don't mean to say that Jon was stupid or anything. He faced some really hard decisions.

A lot of the straight up blunders he made were more along the line of isolating himself, and ignoring the trappings of power to get people to his side.

[Chaircat Meow]

Bowen and his fellow tyrannicides did make a sacrifice at the end. They stabbed Jon after he left a hall full of wildings he’d aroused to follow him to war: they knew they’d likely end up dead.

In no circumstances could a member of the Night's Watch allow his commander to march against the North with a wildling army while at the same time ordering the Night's Watch to bring back even more wildlings from beyond the wall (under the command of a wildling).

Yes the opposition to resettling the wall with wildlings was blinkered and conservative but you can see why they thought they’d been proved right at the end.

And presentation matters here. If Jon had argued, as he could have, that Ramsay was an insane monster and would destroy them all, watchmen and wildings alike, if he came to Castle Black and this would imperil the defences of the Seven Kingdoms then you could more reasonably accuse Bowen of irrationality.

But Jon made no effort to defend himself against the accusations the Boltons made (which he read out for all to hear) and presented his plan as a personal vendetta, appealing only to wildlings. He knew what he doing was indefensible behaviour in a Lord Commander but assumed Bowen and co would not have the guts to stop him. But they did.

Jon would have better off ditching the Nights Watch when Stannis offered him Winterfell. Although I appreciate he had religious qualms.

[EggBlue]

On 12/15/2022 at 8:26 AM, James West said:

Bowen Marsh is one of the most maligned characters in "A Song of ice and Fire."  The slander always come from a vocal segment of the fandom.  He  is a person who knowingly accepted future suffering or death to stop Jon Snow from causing further harm to the Night's Watch and Westeros.  We all seem to agree that bad things are coming his way.  He did nothing wrong and can end up a martyr.  He will not have enough men to stop the Wildlings from leaving the castle and riding to war against Roose Bolton.  

The last book scene with Bowen Marsh had the loyal steward and the other brave brothers of the Night's Watch in tears as they ended the reign of who is perhaps the worst lord commander in the history of the Night's Watch.  The assassination was a reaction to Jon's speech at the Shield Hall.  The arrival of the Pink Letter exposed Jon's surreptitious activities against Lord Roose Bolton and Westeros.  Jon's revelation and admission were damning evidence against him.  He further told the gathered crowd of his intentions to lead an army of Wildlings to attack Lord Roose.  

Bowen Marsh did what any loyal man of the watch would have done.  The assassination was not a pre-planned attack.  It was an impromptu decision made at the very last minute in order to stop a madman from leading a hastily formed army of barbarians on a raid against a noble house of Westeros.  It was not a conspiracy from the Lannisters.  Bowen was not trying to usurp Jon.  Bowen had been loyal to Jon up to the time of the latter's Shield Hall talk.

We must hope for a speedy election of a new lord commander at the wall.  Aliser is a good choice if he is still alive.  

sigh .

 

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Bowen served the Watch and Westeros when he got rid of Jon. He had to rid them of Jon for the greater good. Jon was no longer acting in the best interest of the Watch. Jon was basically using the Watch and abusing his authority to fight for the Starks.  I would not want Bowen harmed but rather rewarded for his loyal service to the Watch. 

Dany isn't the Dragon Reborn, get over it Aes Sedai or be stilled. And even if she were, then she'd help the dark one.

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

I consider Bowen Marsh a hero.  Jon Snow became dysfunctional in the last book.  Jon was erratic and immoral in the matter of Slynt and Rayder.  He did what no other lord commander before him had ever done.  Attack a noble house of Westeros.  Jon's too emotional and inadequate to lead even a herd of goats.  Bowen Marsh was left with no other choice.   

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

3 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I consider Bowen Marsh a hero.  Jon Snow became dysfunctional in the last book.  Jon was erratic and immoral in the matter of Slynt and Rayder.  He did what no other lord commander before him had ever done.  Attack a noble house of Westeros.  Jon's too emotional and inadequate to lead even a herd of goats.  Bowen Marsh was left with no other choice.   

I’m convinced you all are just one guy with multiple profiles. Ramsay threatened to murder everyone at the Wall if they didn’t turn on Stannis (which would violate their non interference tradition). Attacking the Boltons was self defense, no question and you are just ignorant if you think otherwise. And Slynt was disobedient and openly defying the Lord Commander’s orders and was given multiple chances to obey. His execution was justified. Mance is the only thing Jon did that truly went against NW traditions, and Marsh didn’t even know if it was true or not. Marsh is a bigoted dipshit, who quite frankly deserves a worse fate then what is coming to him.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Wun Wun will make pomegranate juice.

Ahhh, I've been saying that for a long time now but have yet to seen it happen. Books must come and fast. He'll make pomegranate juice a la Patrek of King's Mountain, he'll bash that pomegranate into the walls repeatedly.

[Chaircat Meow]

1 hour ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I’m convinced you all are just one guy with multiple profiles. Ramsay threatened to murder everyone at the Wall if they didn’t turn on Stannis (which would violate their non interference tradition). Attacking the Boltons was self defense, no question and you are just ignorant if you think otherwise. And Slynt was disobedient and openly defying the Lord Commander’s orders and was given multiple chances to obey. His execution was justified. Mance is the only thing Jon did that truly went against NW traditions, and Marsh didn’t even know if it was true or not. Marsh is a bigoted dipshit, who quite frankly deserves a worse fate then what is coming to him.

It is not really true Ramsay threatened to murder everyone at the wall. Pink Letter is as below. Ramsay only threatens to kill Jon. He earlier refers to troubling your black crows but this could mean killing their Lord Commander for interfering in his affairs - which, arguably, from a NW perspective, the LC should not be doing. 

"Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell."