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Hero and Martyr: Jon Snow


Craving Peaches

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On 12/15/2022 at 3:37 PM, Craving Peaches said:

*I am aware Jon may not be dead, just badly injured, since he doesn't actually 'die' in his POV.

Thanks for the nod that goes against the status quo.   Until WoW comes, we really don't the fate of who I call, Schrödinger's Jon.             :cheers:

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On 12/15/2022 at 6:37 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So the other thread has inspired me to write about Jonno's tragic demise* in terms of the heroic symbolism of it. Jon was trying to bring the conflicting factions of the Watch and the Wildlings together so that they were united against the greatest threat mankind has ever faced. In this respect, Jon was an idealist and a unifier. Jon died for his ideals of unity and cooperation unrestrained by cultural and religious boundaries. Why did Jon die? Because certain individuals did not share his ideals and let their pettiness and bigotry get the better of them. Even from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it should be clear that the issue of the Others is far more important than anything else. Evidently the conspirators learned nothing from the legend of the Night's King, where the Starks and Wildlings, usually enemies, teamed up to destroy the greater threat. It is actually quite astounding that Bowen Marsh dislikes Jon's ideals so much that it blinds him to the threat of the Others. Is he just being wilfully ignorant? 

Now Jon's decisions when leading the Watch were not perfect, and there are some things I think he could have done better. But I think overall he did a good job with what he had. He had to deal with difficult situations like Stannis interfering and was also trying to face the ultimate threat.

What will happen when Jon comes back? I think that he will continue on his quest to unify all factions in preparation to fight the Others, but there will be less room for compromise and being nice. The fate of humanity is at stake and there's no time to sort things out diplomatically and no room for idiotic bigots like Bowen Marsh, who is on the verge of being a traitor to humanity if you think about it. Jon will likely feel betrayed in some manner by the attack, and I expect him to be harsher and more bitter because of this. There has also been discussion of Jon spending some time in Ghost before coming back, which would also have an effect on his temperament.

*I am aware Jon may not be dead, just badly injured, since he doesn't actually 'die' in his POV.

Jon was not a hero.  His own men killed him.  It cannot be denied that he was murdered by them.  But they had good justifications for doing it.  Jon was leading the watch into war with the kingdom.  

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2 hours ago, Ring3r said:

It doesn't surprise me too much about Bowen Marsh.  Many of the older members of the Watch have lost many friends to the Wildlings, and I'm sure Marsh is no different.  His bringing the Wildlings south of the wall was only one reason they betrayed him as well....he had announced he was going to use the Watch to settle a personal matter because of the Pink Letter....that IS a betrayal of his Oath.  I think he's the ultimate hero of the story, but that doesn't mean he's always going to make good decisions.

As for what will happen when Jon comes back...I'm part of the "He's currently in Ghost" camp, so depending on how long it takes to get him back into a human body.....his personality is probably going to be a bit more hardcore and predatory.

The thing I'm most interested in is HOW is he going to come back.  His body is dead, but there's a Red Priest nearby so that's not insurmountable.  But....unlike in other cases like Beric or Cat....his soul isn't just out in the ether, so maybe that will make it work differently?

There's also the possibility that Jon is going to inhabit a different body than his original.  There's a lot of imagery shared between Euron and Jon.  If Euron somehow transmutes himself into an Other (which appear to be physical manifestations of ice, not flesh and bone) and his body is left behind, Jon might be able to Warg it, since it'd be an unoccupied husk.  This would cause all sorts of problems for Jon, because he would then look like somebody a whole lot of people know as a monster.

I think it's more likely he'll get his old body back and it will be somehow altered (white hair, at a minimum, to look more like a Targ) but there are other options.

I imagine that Shireen will be sacrificed to bring him back.

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17 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Jon was not a hero.  His own men killed him.  It cannot be denied that he was murdered by them.  But they had good justifications for doing it.  Jon was leading the watch into war with the kingdom.  

The kingdom wanted to bring the Watch into war anyways.

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19 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Jon was not a hero.  His own men killed him.  It cannot be denied that he was murdered by them.  But they had good justifications for doing it.  Jon was leading the watch into war with the kingdom.  

The Kingdom he was going to war with would’ve annihilated the NW if they didn’t hand Stannis’ people over. And if they had done so would’ve broken their oaths anyway. That is, if they even could. The only thing Jon did that was against his vows and traditions was send Mance after “Arya”. Which, again, “oh no he wanted to save his sister from being brutally raped, tortured, and abused by one of the cruelest men to ever exist.” What a monster l!”

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Bowen did not care about any traditions, he only cared about petting wildlings in, and used falsely perceived “broken vows” to justify his murder. He is scum that deserves his brutal fate. He had absolutely no desire to save the realm from the Others, nor would his actions have led to anything other than the Others triumphing. He is a traitor, as are all his supporters. Which are probably minimal. I imagine it’ll go something like when the senators stabbed Caesar. Once he is dead they’ll expect the masses to follow their side, but will quickly be foiled by Jon’s supporters. He’ll die, broken and defeated. And probably painfully to.

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25 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

The bottom line is Bowen was right. Jon was a danger to all of them. He wasn’t the only Crow who realized it was time for Jon to be removed. If not Bowen it would have been another Crow to lead the stabbing. 

You know the people you're defending are psychopaths, I hope? Assuming this isn't a troll post that is.

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Jon is born a confluence of Fire and Ice and the Old Gods.

A born Leader who has the ability to see the big picture. Few in the story can. 

He was chosen time after time; The Old Bear, The Half Hand, and Donal Noye all chose him. 

Did he die ? maybe, maybe not.

If he is, his resurrection will be something new. Not just fire like Beric or Cat.

But Fire(Mel), Ice(Val) and Old Gods( Bran ). 

His soul will have resided in Ghost and he will most certainly be changed. Transcendent even

The question in my mind, what will he become?

The Night King, The King of Winter(my vote) or AA Reborn.

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On 12/20/2022 at 4:27 PM, The Commentator said:

The bottom line is Bowen was right. Jon was a danger to all of them. He wasn’t the only Crow who realized it was time for Jon to be removed. If not Bowen it would have been another Crow to lead the stabbing. 

As far as they knew, the Lord of the North threatened to slaughter the entire NW because the LC remained neutral. Because he wouldn’t throw Stannis’ people out, even if he could. You are simply wrong.

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Jon Snow was a traitor. He betrayed the purpose of the Night's Watch.  He will be remembered by history and it will not be kind.  People of the future will remember him the way they remember the Nights King.  A corrupt lord commander who almost destroyed the watch with his madness.  Jon was like Aerys who needed removal.  Bowen was to Jon as Jaime was to Aerys.  

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4 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Jon Snow was a traitor. He betrayed the purpose of the Night's Watch.  He will be remembered by history and it will not be kind.  People of the future will remember him the way they remember the Nights King.  A corrupt lord commander who almost destroyed the watch with his madness.  Jon was like Aerys who needed removal.  Bowen was to Jon as Jaime was to Aerys.  

Jony boy will become the hero of mankind defeating the ice hearted, evil tyrant, genociding, blood magicking dragon queen who feeds children to her dragons. His followers will crush her armies of no balls in glorious battle and he will slay her and end her reign of fear and misrule once and for all. He’ll be worshipped as a saviour of humanity for eons to come. 
 

Ya hya chouhada, ya hya chouhada Jon Snow!

 

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Jon is a true moron.  He should have better sense than interfering with the politics of the kingdom.  This plot was designed for tragedy. Jon allowed prophecy to lead him towards Arya and away from the Watch. Jon’s love for Arya will cause more tragedy for them and Westeros. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/15/2022 at 5:37 PM, Craving Peaches said:

It is actually quite astounding that Bowen Marsh dislikes Jon's ideals so much that it blinds him to the threat of the Others. Is he just being wilfully ignorant? 

We readers know we're reading an epic fantasy story. For us the story started with a scary encounter with the Others. We take it as a given that the Others are an existential threat. As much as I dislike Bowen Marsh, I can understand why he might not assume that. Who knows how many Others are really out there? Sam, of all people, was able to kill one. Maybe with the right weapons they aren't that hard to kill. The Wall was built to stop the Others. Why won't it protect the Watch now? The list goes on. If you start by assuming that the Others are not an existential threat, then Marsh's actions make much more sense. He's wrong, of course, but I think it's understandable that not everyone in the story believes they are on the verge of a winter zombie apocalypse.

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1 hour ago, Groo said:

If you start by assuming that the Others are not an existential threat, then Marsh's actions make much more sense. He's wrong, of course, but I think it's understandable that not everyone in the story believes they are on the verge of a winter zombie apocalypse.

But wasn't Marsh there when Othor and co. rose up and tried to kill LC Mormont? I understand he hasn't seen the Others with his own eyes but surely he is aware that Wights exist?

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6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But wasn't Marsh there when Othor and co. rose up and tried to kill LC Mormont? I understand he hasn't seen the Others with his own eyes but surely he is aware that Wights exist?

That gets you winter zombies but a single surprise attack by two wights doesn't automatically get you end of the world apocalypse. Bowen could easily be thinking let's not be stupid and bring more wights to our side of the Wall and we should be fine.

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Every single decision Bowen Marsh makes is guided by self-preservation and bigotry. End of. 
 

ETA: and he’s too stupid to see his bigotry will annihilate any shot at self-preservation he could have otherwise had. And good riddance, I say. :commie:

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I find Bowen Marsh (spits) too boring to even think about.  He can count, so some say, but I don’t see that Jon was delivered any fatal wounds. 
There will be chaos at Castle Black and Bowen (spits) and his little coterie of scared boys who can’t stab straight will be hanged.  

Jon will receive aid right away and will heal. His plans will have to adjust and that is where the story will go. 
 

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