The Sword that Slays the Season and other intangible blades

[Seams]

It seems as if we are supposed to look for intangible blades. 

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Bran asked Septon Chayle about the comet while they were sorting through some scrolls snatched from the library fire. "It is the sword that slays the season," he replied, and soon after the white raven came from Oldtown bringing word of autumn, so doubtless he was right.

ACoK, Bran I

I know that this forum (or maybe it started elsewhere) refers to Melisandre's weapons as "shadow babies," but I think they might be part of a larger category of intangible blades.

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There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

ACoK, Davos II

I think Melisandre IS the comet, which would help to explain why she thinks Stannis is the Prince that was Promised - if she is the flaming sword, she would recognize Azor Ahai. The so-called shadow baby may be a meteor at the same time it is a child (note that its head has a crown.), two arms, fingers, and possibly a rose, tunnel and tower. 

If we agree that Renly was killed by one of Melisandre's shadow weapons, this image makes clearer mention of the sword that is intangible:

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"I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

ACoK, Catelyn IV

Catelyn is invoking the Mother just as the shadow arrives through the tent flap: is this a metaphorical birth, like the scene Davos witnesses at Storm's End? (Think also of the scene where Dany gives birth to her "monster" baby.)

I think that GRRM wants us to connect Renly's death with both the change of seasons and the comet. Renly is a "green man" character who dies just after the white raven has flown from the Citadel. 

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"War will make them old," Catelyn said, "as it did us." She had been a girl when Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn raised their banners against Aerys Targaryen, a woman by the time the fighting was done. "I pity them."

"Why?" Lord Rowan asked her. "Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?"

"Because it will not last," Catelyn answered, sadly. "Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming."

"Lady Catelyn, you are wrong." Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor. "Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining."

Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. She did not have the heart to say it.

ACoK, Catelyn II

It's significant that she is talking to Lord Rowan, I think, because a Rowan is a tree. (House Rowan is a background presence in The Sworn Sword, where Dunk brings about an impossible reunion between earth and rain to end a drought.) But Rowan doesn't understand Catelyn's concern about the passage of time, which is consistent with what Bloodraven tells Bran about the way that trees experience time.

If the albino Bloodraven also symbolizes the white raven of the Citadel, his role in Bran's arc may be to teach Bran how to slay the season in years to come. Is he a Master of Arms? 

Besides Melisandre, who else in ASOIAF wields a shadow sword, if anyone? Or can we think of instances of someone dying where the blade seemed to be invisible? Joffrey?

There is a lot of discussion of the White Raven (the reference is always to "the" white raven of the Citadel, as if there is only one) in the ACOK prologue where Cressen dies. Is Cressen also a symbolic season, like Renly? Or is his death a necessary precursor to the death of Renly / summer?

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

Besides Melisandre, who else in ASOIAF wields a shadow sword, if anyone?

A great many, along the lines of Jaime's smile that cuts like a knife, Sansa's look that cuts Ned, eyes that pierce the soul etc. Actual bodily harm is more difficult, though there are things like the parchment shields, which do or could translate into actual physical safety. And the Others/KG are described as shadows, of course.

Are you thinking of missing things generally? I hope you are, I think that angle will be huge.

13 hours ago, Seams said:

Is Cressen also a symbolic season, like Renly? Or is his death a necessary precursor to the death of Renly / summer?

Possibly yes to the first - Stannis rejects the old and the cold, and lets it die; he has a new god now. He rejects Renly's rainbow summer too. Stannis is the winter storm and humanity's king in winter - better than endless frozen peace, but no-one will be grateful to him.

[Seams]

13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Are you thinking of missing things generally? I hope you are, I think that angle will be huge.

Interesting. Examples?

I wonder whether Jaime's kingslayer arm fits this notion. He used it to kill Aerys and to push Bran off the Old Keep. If Bran represents summer (because of his wolf and Old Nan calling him summer child), it makes sense that the sword made of Ice is remade by Tobho Mott and passed from Jaime to Brienne. Brienne wants to kill Stannis and help Catelyn's children. 

After Qyburn helps Jaime to heal, the severed hand is no longer mentioned. I wonder whether it will resurface again in a new form or with a new person. Melisandre says that finger bones can be used to make glamours. 

Poisons in general may represent invisible blades. Cressen and Joffrey both die ingesting poisons. We never see Jaqen H'ghar use a weapon for the three deaths he "owes" Arya. 

13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Stannis is the winter storm

This sounds right. He goes to The Wall and the endless snowfall begins. And Jon Snow helps him in a number of ways, even though he is supposed to be neutral. 

Selyse Florent is part of the constellation of Reach / Highgarden claimants: Tyrell, Florent, Gardener. She may represent spring or summer. As a winter storm, Stannis is not interested in her. Robert had no problem bedding a Florent on the wedding night of Stannis and Selyse and the union resulted in a son who is also a Storm.

Robert also brings peaches from the Reach for Ned and Renly offers a peach to Stannis which he rejects. Maybe the symbolism is that eating a peach is a symbol of the end of summer - the harvest, the ripe fruit. Robert praises peaches from the Reach and says he brought them for Ned but we never see Ned eating peaches and he really prefers not to go south, in spite of Robert's description of the good things that he loves about the hot climate. 

[Julia H.]

A fascinating topic.

Regarding peaches and summer and winter... Ned is the descendant of the Kings of Winter, and he himself is symbolically a Winter King, whereas Robert is a King of Summer. Robert seems much older than his age would suggest, and he dies at the end of the actual summer - no surprise there. However, Ned also dies before the real winter starts. Now then, it is an interesting thought that Stannis is "the winter storm" or another King of Winter. He rises to kingship after the deaths of the original "Summer and Winter Kings" of the story. Renly, another (young) Summer King figure, also rises to power following Robert's death.

Basically, after the deaths of Robert and Ned, we see a new pair of Summer and Winter appear. These two seasons are clearly "brothers". Robert and Ned were symbolic brothers, who loved each other but had their quarrels as well; while Renly and Stannis are actual brothers and antagonists, without much love between them. Renly rises to power before Stannis does - perhaps because Robert dies first, and Stannis, interestingly, only declares himself king after Ned's death, as though both new kings had to wait until the death of their respective antecedents. 

So, Renly dies, since the new summer is not about to come yet. He is killed by his harsh "winter" brother. Maybe his premature death can be reference to the "year of the false spring", when people thought spring would start but they were disappointed in that hope. That was the year of the Harrenhal Tourney, and Renly's brief reign is characterized by a tournament  that Cat describes as a badly timed "summer" event.

Stannis, always cold and harsh, truly becomes the new Winter King in the North. His failure in the South may indicate that Winter must win in the North first, and his first victory is against the wildlings, who are indeed the population most exposed to the harshness of winter. Based on the above, the future death of Stannis may either indicate the end of the winter or perhaps he may have to hand his crown over to a more "real" Winter King. It is also interesting to wait for the next "summer king" to appear.

[Evolett]

9 hours ago, Julia H. said:

A fascinating topic.

Regarding peaches and summer and winter... Ned is the descendant of the Kings of Winter, and he himself is symbolically a Winter King, whereas Robert is a King of Summer. Robert seems much older than his age would suggest, and he dies at the end of the actual summer - no surprise there. However, Ned also dies before the real winter starts. Now then, it is an interesting thought that Stannis is "the winter storm" or another King of Winter. He rises to kingship after the deaths of the original "Summer and Winter Kings" of the story. Renly, another (young) Summer King figure, also rises to power following Robert's death.

............ 

In my head canon, what you describe here is what I think of as a symbolic or perhaps even real reason for an unnatural extension of the seasons. Robert and Renly are both Horned God archetypes connected to the birth, death and changing of the seasons and both are summer kings. Robert reigns for a long time as a summer king, the longest summer in living memory. According to the lore, he should have been followed by the winter king after his death and symbolically, he would have been if Ned had lived to become Joffery's regent. Joff's reign is a continuation of summer, he in turn challenged by Renly. Tommen is the current summer king. All this vying for the summer throne.

Robb Stark, a chosen King of the North / winter king, brings winter as far as the Riverlands and is slain. And Stannis then takes on his role, slaying Renly, eliminating the summer king who should not be, as you point out. I think the king's consort, his wife consolidates the season. Cersei is a summer queen whose rule is challenged by Margaery. Margaery herself is consort to three summer kings in a row. She originates from Highgarden, the breadbasket of the realm and is the symbolic fertility goddess accompanying the horned lord of summertime. My guess is that Queens of Love and Beauty also play a role in determining the season or the prosperity or calamity a season will bring. 

Symbolically, the forces of summer are doing their best to stay in power, while the forces of winter are not being given their due. When Starks go south, they bring the winter with them. To avoid this, they are slain. It's interesting that Ned has an "autumn" wife who returns from the underworld on avenge her winter husband and son. 

Following this logic, it's possible the Others began to stir when Rickard Stark and his heir were murdered by the Mad King. 

 

10 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Based on the above, the future death of Stannis may either indicate the end of the winter or perhaps he may have to hand his crown over to a more "real" Winter King. It is also interesting to wait for the next "summer king" to appear.

More like he'll have to hand over to the real winter king. I'm thinking this is what Dany's "slayer of lies" trio is about. Slaying false seasonal kings. The next summer / winter pair to emerge would be Aegon and Euron respectively. 

Regarding the intangible swords, I think they are important in the context of slaying the season or slaying seasonal representativies because achieving a change in rule or season is nigh on impossible by normal, "earthly" means. I suspect that in the end, the Others or whatever is controlling the Others, will be eliminated by just such an "intangible blade." Ghost is such a blade:

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Rangers often shared skins for warmth, but warmth was not all Ygritte wanted, he suspected. After that he had taken to using Ghost to keep her away. Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor’s sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword. 

Davos smuggled Mel in to Storm's End to birth her shadow baby. Ghost is a white shadow and Jon's intangible blade. Perhaps Jon will teach Ghost to "juggle" his way maybe through otherwise impassible terrain in order to slay whatever is at the heart of winter. 

[Evolett]

The Ironborn and Kings of Winter warred for control over Bear Island for centuries until King Rodrik Stark won the Island in a wrestling match, it is said. According to the World Book:

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More sober scholars call this into question, suggesting that if there was “wrestling,” it was with words.

This is interesting because it reflects the swords/words wordplay. The matter was settled not with swords but with words. Tyrion makes the association between swords and words in aGoT. Perhaps words can also be intangible blades. 

Rodrik Stark and the Ironborn chief "wrestling with words" in place of swords reminds me of the Ironborn Rodrik Harlaw - also known as The Reader - a man known for his love of reading, i.e. words. His personal sigil is a silver scythe on a black field and he has two monstrous scythes hanging above his high seat, perhaps implying that scythes are linked to reading / words. 

The obsidian blade Sam Tarly kills Ser Puddles with causes the Other's icy body to steam and melt away, the magic holding everything together dissolving along with the icy flesh. I think this "holding magic" is similar to the glamouring magic Melisandre uses to change Mance's appearance to Rattleshirt's. To break the spell, Mel only utters a word. The magic then begins to fade, revealing the true Mance beneath. So far we have not seen words used as a weapon of death (unless "dracarys" is such a word) but perhaps the author is preparing us for "spell-fights/word-fights" by way of the obvious relationship between swords and words. 

[Roswell]

Of all of the swords, only the red comet has worldwide effects on the climate. 

[Springwatch]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:14 AM, Seams said:

On 12/17/2022 at 10:34 AM, Springwatch said:

Are you thinking of missing things generally? I hope you are, I think that angle will be huge.

Interesting. Examples?

At times like these, I wish I'd kept a notebook of interesting things - I have more certainty than examples. I feel a New Year's resolution coming on...

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:42 PM, Seams said:

I think Melisandre IS the comet, which would help to explain why she thinks Stannis is the Prince that was Promised - if she is the flaming sword, she would recognize Azor Ahai. The so-called shadow baby may be a meteor at the same time it is a child (note that its head has a crown.), two arms, fingers, and possibly a rose, tunnel and tower. 

Shierak Qiya is the Red Comet.  It is a herald of Daenerys, her dragons, and the change in climate.  The Starks got their direpups earlier in the story and those dogs heralded the coming of the long night.  Daenerys and her dragons will have to beat the Starks and their direwovles in order to save the world from getting permanently engulfed by darkness.  

[Seams]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:57 PM, Evolett said:

Rodrik Harlaw - also known as The Reader - a man known for his love of reading, i.e. words. His personal sigil is a silver scythe on a black field and he has two monstrous scythes hanging above his high seat, perhaps implying that scythes are linked to reading / words. 

I had never noticed his scythe sigil. This causes me to wonder about a new kind of wordplay GRRM might have tapped into: could "reader" be a slightly disguised "reaper"? Just turn the letter "d" 180 degrees to make a "p". 

[SerDuncan]

On 12/17/2022 at 2:12 AM, Seams said:

where Dunk brings about an impossible reunion between earth and rain to end a drought

His sword fits so perfectly, almost an extension of his arm...

On 12/21/2022 at 5:55 AM, Evolett said:

Robb Stark, a chosen King of the North / winter king, brings winter as far as the Riverlands and is slain. And Stannis then takes on his role, slaying Renly, eliminating the summer king who should not be, as you point out. I think the king's consort, his wife consolidates the season. Cersei is a summer queen whose rule is challenged by Margaery. Margaery herself is consort to three summer kings in a row. She originates from Highgarden, the breadbasket of the realm and is the symbolic fertility goddess accompanying the horned lord of summertime. My guess is that Queens of Love and Beauty also play a role in determining the season or the prosperity or calamity a season will bring. 

Symbolically, the forces of summer are doing their best to stay in power, while the forces of winter are not being given their due. When Starks go south, they bring the winter with them. To avoid this, they are slain. It's interesting that Ned has an "autumn" wife who returns from the underworld on avenge her winter husband and son. 

Maybe whatever the Starks brought with them should have been towards the opposite direction...

On 12/21/2022 at 5:55 AM, Evolett said:

Following this logic, it's possible the Others began to stir when Rickard Stark and his heir were murdered by the Mad King.

Or when they failed to keep looking the right way

[Seams]

On 12/20/2022 at 7:25 PM, Evolett said:

Cersei is a summer queen whose rule is challenged by Margaery. Margaery herself is consort to three summer kings in a row. She originates from Highgarden, the breadbasket of the realm and is the symbolic fertility goddess accompanying the horned lord of summertime.

I recently noticed this detail about Margaery:

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Sansa had watched from the castle walls as Margaery Tyrell and her escort made their way up Aegon's High Hill. Joffrey had met his new bride-to-be at the King's Gate to welcome her to the city, and they rode side by side through cheering crowds, Joff glittering in gilded armor and the Tyrell girl splendid in green with a cloak of autumn flowers blowing from her shoulders. She was sixteen, brown-haired and brown-eyed, slender and beautiful. 

ASoS, Sansa I

Maybe Margaery embodies fall or the harvest season?

But why "autumn flowers"? Very few flowers bloom in autumn. (I'm thinking asters, though, which would have star symbolism.) Maybe the point is that they are blowing from her shoulders like falling leaves which would hark back to Catelyn's first POV in AGoT, with the layers of fallen leaves in the gods wood.

The warm welcome from the smallfolk of King's Landing was set up in advance with harvested food:

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But speaking of pretty, is Margaery Tyrell in King's Landing yet?"

"No. She's coming, though, and the city's mad with love for her. The Tyrells have been carting food up from Highgarden and giving it away in her name. Hundreds of wayns each day. There's thousands of Tyrell men swaggering about with little golden roses sewn on their doublets, and not a one is buying his own wine. Wife, widow, or whore, the women are all giving up their virtue to every peach-fuzz boy with a gold rose on his teat."

ASoS, Tyrion I

 

[LongRider]

On 12/20/2022 at 4:25 PM, Evolett said:

Following this logic, it's possible the Others began to stir when Rickard Stark and his heir were murdered by the Mad King. 

Love this idea.  Interesting factoid, Lord Rickard Stark and his oldest son Brandon killed by Mad King Aerys in the year 282.   Sixteen years later, in 298 Ser Waymar Royce is killed by White Walkers while north of the Wall.  Plenty of time for the WW's to grow and expand their numbers a bit.

[Nadden]

On 1/9/2023 at 6:04 PM, LongRider said:

in 298 Ser Waymar Royce is killed by White Walkers while north of the Wall.  Plenty of time for the WW's to grow and expand their numbers a bit.

Waymar, broken, still lives. He passes through the Wall with the other wildlings

[LongRider]

52 minutes ago, Nadden said:

Waymar, broken, still lives. He passes through the Wall with the other wildlings

Ah, no.

[Nadden]

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

Ah, no.

What do you see when you look into Waymar’s eyes?

[GZ Bloodraven]

23 hours ago, Nadden said:

What do you see when you look into Waymar’s eyes?

Blue?

On 12/16/2022 at 12:42 PM, Seams said:

Besides Melisandre, who else in ASOIAF wields a shadow sword, if anyone? Or can we think of instances of someone dying where the blade seemed to be invisible? Joffrey?

The entire order of the Faceless Men is built on "no one" killing people. Obviously symbolic, but we're talking about intangible blades. Does the Faceless Man magic use shadowbinding or dead-warging? George's magic system isn't supposed to be very complicated (death magic should be pretty consistent). 

[Nadden]

19 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Blue?

Thanks for asking:)

If definitely appears like it. But that’s the intent. 

When looking at Ser Waymar Royce, the lead protagonist in the prologue, it’s important to keep in mind the point of view. Everything we see, hear, and know about Waymar comes from Will. Even our feelings toward Waymar begins with Will. For example, notice how Will addresses Waymar all throughout the prologue. He refers to him using the diminutive term “lordling”, something less than or younger than a lord. Eight times the term is used; but only once out loud and it’s Gared that uses it then. Will only ever thinks it. He mostly says, “m’lord” out loud. And once, he uses both syllables and says “my lord”; but he’s feeling insolent and being sarcastic. It’s obvious that Will doesn’t respect Waymar and thinks he’s too inexperienced to be in command. The point I’m making is we’re seeing what Will thinks he sees. And he thinks he’s seeing Waymar reanimated.

It’s similar to how people believe in ghosts. It’s the easiest explanation for something they don’t understand and they don’t have to think. It’s the lazy answer. Martin seemingly gives a hat tip to Vic Tandy, a British engineer, by placing a shivering pale sword with ghost-light playing around its’ edges in the chapter. Vic Tandy gives a plausible reason for ghost sightings. Check him out in Wikipedia. Here

In similar fashion to Vic Tandy, we find the answers for what Will thinks he’s seeing by taking a look at the longsword that shivered into a hundred brittle pieces just moments before.

In (ADWD, a Jon XII chapter) when Jon, watching the wildlings pass through the Wall at Castle Black, sees a man produce a broken hilt with three sapphires. Can this broken hilt be proof? Proof that Waymar is still alive, possibly. Did the man have an injured right eye? At this point we can still only speculate.  But the hilt certainly brings to mind the hilt Will snatched up.

Waymar’s longsword is described having more than one, quite likely 3, jewels in its hilt.

Now consider the “Blue” that you mention. It describes the pupil burning blue. This matches what appears to be the other (pun intended) set of blue eyes in the chapter. They were “a blue that burned like ice”. Three burning blue eyes. And in both cases Waymar’s sword hilt is in close proximity.

Taking a closer look:

On Waymar’s hilt the jewels, described as glittering in the moonlight, are quite likely the cause of the pale shapes that Will sees from up in the sentinel. His gems are catching and throwing light.  Certainly “a blue that burned like ice” would be a good way to describe sapphires in the moonlight.

Now consider some of the wordplay Martin uses to hint at these thoughts.

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The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

The eyes were “fixed” on the longsword that had moonlight running cold along the metal. So literarily Martin has Will think that the burning blue eyes, that we suspect are gems, are fixed on the longsword with jewels in the hilt that we suspect are sapphires. Seems like a good hint, thanks George.

And like the horses at the ironwood tree, these eyes were guarded (guarded: fixed on the guard of the hilt) and the third, bigger gem, was tied or fixed well away from the others, on the pommel or lower limb. And like Waymar’s horse, it was the wrong mount for a ranging. This comparison of the hilt and the jewels to a tree and horses isn’t just my idea. Martin does it also when he describes the hilt “like a tree struck by lightning”. Not coincidentally the pale sword, partly responsible for breaking Waymar’s sword, in the duel, is described as dancing with pale blue light. The main point here is the arrangement of the jewels on Waymar’s hilt.

The two on the guard line up with the eyes of the gaunt, pale, milky white flesh of the shadow’s face in front of Waymar. If you’ll recall, Waymar paused sword, trembling on high, at the same time the Other halts. From Will’s point of view in the sentinel, the glittering jewels and the burning blue eyes line up perfectly. In perfect contrast, Will went up the tree to look for fire and found something that burned like Ice. This obviously burns into his memory. Because the next time he sees a jewel he thinks the same thing.

Note the sequence of the actions when Will finds the hilt a few feet away. He is looking around warily when he picks it up, not looking at it. And then Waymar shows up just as he is starting to consider the broken hilt. Will doesn’t realize it but he is holding the hilt, pommel up, between him and Waymar’s face. Will then closed his eyes to pray as the broken hilt fell fell from nerveless fingers.

The blue eye is a sapphire gem in the pommel of Waymar’s broken sword hilt.

This gemstone fixed into Waymar’s sword contrasts the shard transfixing Waymar’s  left eye from the other sword.

What do you see when you look into the left eye?