Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

[Rondo]

Jon was a very bad choice to fill the shoes of Lord Commander.  He should have stayed at training the recruits. 

Daenerys will become a fine ruler for the people of Westeros.  

[LongRider]

For a good analysis of Jon and Dany, this reread may be worth your time.

Link to Reread Resource Page

Edited December 21, 2022 by LongRider

[James Arryn]

Let’s be honest, if the question is ‘who is best equipped to lead millions of people in a crisis’, the answer is very unlikely to be someone who isn’t even old enough to drive many places today. Yes, there are the occasional teen prodigies, but Rhaegar is the only real prodigy mentioned in the series aside from maybe the Young Dragon and/or Daemon BF, and they all ~ lost.

From a narrative POV, I sadly believe that despite all the subversions, Jon will likely eventually be King Arthur/Luke Skywalker and all the rest is just cosmetics to make it seem less apparent/cliched. I mean, I think GRRM means to end with the Scouring, I think Jon will pay a heavy price and all that, but he is Divined. Dany too has been ~ gifted much of what makes her exceptional by the exigencies of plot. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by James Arryn

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

Slynt deserved to die not because of who he was before NW but the person he still was in the NW and his actions in NW. In the eyes of the public, Mance Rayder was already executed at the time, it wouldn't do the undermine the higher(in fact highest) authority's, Stannis decision by declaring executed Mance was false. Remember that it was Ned and not the Old Bear who executed the first deserter we ever saw so lords of the realm can and do decide(at least punish) what to do with deserters, I don't approve his deception much but Stannis as king had every right to pardon Mance.

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

 

Jon has been tested by Arya twice, first is when Mance was sent to her rescue, it was a favor from Mel Mel could've just sent Mance without even declaring his true identity, without even saying a word to Jon who didn't have much say in it anyway, so I'd say he passed this test the first time around. The second time was with the Pink Letter and I very much like to say he failed, but he passed for the simple reason his planned attack on Boltons was now justified because of the contents of the letter. If Ramsay didn't threaten him, the watch, the lives of those under Jon's protection, people who he was obliged to protect by custom if nothing else and just wanted his bride back(which would be seen as his right) and no one else, not even Theon who Ramsay holds no rights  Jon would be counted as failed the test as I believe he would still take the same course of action. Jon managed to pass his test while failing miserably simply because the argument can be made he was in his rights to defend and obligated to protect the watch and all those who were his "guests".

 

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

 

Half of what you say requires no intelligence or cunning, She didn't bring the dragons back to life by intelligence, nor did she cross the desert by it, although taking that road instead of being food for other Khalasars could be considered a smart move but a desperate one. Only starting with Qarth can we say she used her intelligence.

 

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

 

Daenerys has made bad choices and gone half measures throughout her Slaver's bay campaign. Jon goes half measures as well though the consequences are not as dire and he doesn't always go half, He is capable of going the whole way like with Janos, the decision to negotiate with Tormund and freeing Val to do it, decision to send an expedition to Hard Home, decision to face Ramsay are some examples. Dany has caused almost an entire city's population to die through her actions and inactions. First she kills all the free adult males of the Astapor, then she leaves the slaves there to their own devices and they quickly start ripping out each other's throats, she leaves Yunkai be in exchange for freeing the slaves and some tribute, she now has a horde of people she must take care and just can't and Yunkai immediately return to slavery, she takes Meereen but fails to punish the great masters properly, I would see her not harming the children as a good act but great masters will see it as weakness which would only serve to embolden them and this is exactly what happens, and when Astapor is attacked, in their direst time she says they are freed men, they must look after themselves and abandons them which results in most of it's inhabitants dying in either battle or due to starvation and disease. She doesn't just stop there though, she accepts(or was in the verge of accepting) a treaty in which she'll pay reperations and allow slavery in Astapor and Yunkai.

Quote

Gold and gems were easy. "What else?"

"The Yunkai'i will resume slaving, as before. Astapor will be rebuilt, as a slave city. You will not interfere."

"The Yunkai'i resumed their slaving before I was two leagues from their city. Did I turn back? King Cleon begged me to join with him against them, and I turned a deaf ear to his pleas. I want no war with Yunkai. How many times must I say it? What promises do they require?"

She caused an entire city's worth of people die and has so far achieved nothing for it, she only made things worse while Jon too has his shortcomings, so far he has rescued far more people than he caused to suffer or even worse, die. Jon does everything in his power to save people whereas Dany just gets bored and leaves them to their fate.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Rondo said:

Jon was a very bad choice to fill the shoes of Lord Commander.  He should have stayed at training the recruits. 

Daenerys will become a fine ruler for the people of Westeros.  

She already caused a city full of people to die. She will become a fine ruler for the people of Westeros alright, when Westeros is completely conquered by White Walkers. She can run the wightification program as she has the rare gift of getting tens of thousands of people killed not just willingly but also unwillingly. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

lol.

[Bowen Marsh]

Jon is an incompetent with a bad temper.  Even that fool Robb Stark is a better leader than Jon.  There are several young people coming of age who are positioned to lead or rule in the future.  Daenerys Targaryen is the best of that lot.  Daenerys has the courage, intelligence, lineage, and skills to become the best ruler possible for a new great dawn empire. 

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon is an incompetent with a bad temper.  Even that fool Robb Stark is a better leader than Jon.  There are several young people coming of age who are positioned to lead or rule in the future.  Daenerys Targaryen is the best of that lot.  Daenerys has the courage, intelligence, lineage, and skills to become the best ruler possible for a new great dawn empire. 

Dany commits genocide on Slaver's bay in the claims that she wishes to abolish slavery, but then leaves the freed slaves to allow them to rip each others throats so the survivors can be killed off by other slavers and after these she agrees to sign a treaty that legalizes slavery and marry a slaver. Well at least the guy is hot, or so Dany thinks which makes me wonder with what part of her body does she do the thinking. 

 

[EggBlue]

Daenerys Targaryen is NOT a better leader than Jon Snow.

I'd say they're pretty much the same.

[Moiraine Sedai]

9 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

I would choose Dany over Jon to rule Westeros. It’s not even a close contest. Dany is the better leader, will be the better ruler, and will rule Westeros. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

4 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon is an incompetent with a bad temper.  Even that fool Robb Stark is a better leader than Jon.  There are several young people coming of age who are positioned to lead or rule in the future.  Daenerys Targaryen is the best of that lot.  Daenerys has the courage, intelligence, lineage, and skills to become the best ruler possible for a new great dawn empire. 

Agreed

[Moiraine Sedai]

9 hours ago, Rondo said:

Jon was a very bad choice to fill the shoes of Lord Commander.  He should have stayed at training the recruits. 

Daenerys will become a fine ruler for the people of Westeros.  

That meathead could never be trusted to honor his vows because he will always choose the Starks over the realm. Samwell and the other boys had more honor in their little finger. They brought him back after he deserted. 

[Arthur Peres]

I don't get why compare such diferent situations.

Put Jon in place of Daenerys with three dragons I see him doing just a "ok" job as she.

Put Daenerys isolated on the wall with a buch of idiots, having to deal with the others, Stannis, Widling, Ramsey and Bowen March, I see her getting just as manny stab wounds as Jon, but probably from a diferent faction.

[Craving Peaches]

This thread is a great aid in identifying alt-accounts.

[astarkchoice]

Ok swapping their starting points

If dany was sent to the wall shed have been raped so many times youd think the russian army had been there

 

If jon had been offered to khal drago as a bride his khalassar would have burnt pentos to ashes (then again he is supposed to be pretty so who knows)

[Rondo]

14 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon is an incompetent with a bad temper.  Even that fool Robb Stark is a better leader than Jon.  There are several young people coming of age who are positioned to lead or rule in the future.  Daenerys Targaryen is the best of that lot.  Daenerys has the courage, intelligence, lineage, and skills to become the best ruler possible for a new great dawn empire. 

Robert the Usurper, failed LC Jon Snow, Cersei, and the skin-changer Stark kids made a big mess of Westeros.  Dany will liberate the few remaining population from the mind control slavery of the White Walkers and the Skinchanging Starks.  

[Rondo]

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't get why compare such diferent situations.

Put Jon in place of Daenerys with three dragons I see him doing just a "ok" job as she.

Jon cannot be trusted with that much power and authority.  He squandered, abused, and misused his power at the Wall.  He was always fighting for the useless Starks in his heart.  Jon abused his power when he murdered Slynt and ordered Mance to sneak Arya to the wall.  Snowman is not ethical.  Jon is an example of a corrupt leader.  His fans see his undying love for Arya as something to cheer for.  It might be if he had not put the watch in danger and dragged the black brothers into conflict with the Boltons to rescue her.  Putting everyone in danger to rescue fake Arya, though he did not know, from a marriage is plainly stupid and selfish.  Arya doesn't deserve it.  She's a murdering lunatic.  Why would anybody endanger the lives of so many for her is ridiculous.  

9 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Put Daenerys isolated on the wall with a buch of idiots, having to deal with the others, Stannis, Widling, Ramsey and Bowen March, I see her getting just as manny stab wounds as Jon, but probably from a diferent faction.

I doubt that.  Her challenges are larger because slavery is deeply entrenched in that part of the world known as Mereen.  The scale of her challenges are much greater.  But then she is a much more capable person too.  

[SeanF]

It remains to seen, who is the better leader. Dany’s story is not finished, and neither, I suspect, is Jon’s.

 

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It remains to seen, who is the better leader. Dany’s story is not finished, and neither, I suspect, is Jon’s.

 

If GRRM finishes the story.