Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[James West]

On 12/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

Dany manages prophecies better than any other.  She doesn't overly react but instead take a watchful and cautious approach.  I like her.  She deserves to win the great game of thrones and rule.  

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:02 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Slynt deserved to die not because of who he was before NW but the person he still was in the NW and his actions in NW. In the eyes of the public, Mance Rayder was already executed at the time, it wouldn't do the undermine the higher(in fact highest) authority's, Stannis decision by declaring executed Mance was false. Remember that it was Ned and not the Old Bear who executed the first deserter we ever saw so lords of the realm can and do decide(at least punish) what to do with deserters, I don't approve his deception much but Stannis as king had every right to pardon Mance.

Jon has been tested by Arya twice, first is when Mance was sent to her rescue, it was a favor from Mel Mel could've just sent Mance without even declaring his true identity, without even saying a word to Jon who didn't have much say in it anyway, so I'd say he passed this test the first time around. The second time was with the Pink Letter and I very much like to say he failed, but he passed for the simple reason his planned attack on Boltons was now justified because of the contents of the letter. If Ramsay didn't threaten him, the watch, the lives of those under Jon's protection, people who he was obliged to protect by custom if nothing else and just wanted his bride back(which would be seen as his right) and no one else, not even Theon who Ramsay holds no rights  Jon would be counted as failed the test as I believe he would still take the same course of action. Jon managed to pass his test while failing miserably simply because the argument can be made he was in his rights to defend and obligated to protect the watch and all those who were his "guests".

 

Half of what you say requires no intelligence or cunning, She didn't bring the dragons back to life by intelligence, nor did she cross the desert by it, although taking that road instead of being food for other Khalasars could be considered a smart move but a desperate one. Only starting with Qarth can we say she used her intelligence.

 

Daenerys has made bad choices and gone half measures throughout her Slaver's bay campaign. Jon goes half measures as well though the consequences are not as dire and he doesn't always go half, He is capable of going the whole way like with Janos, the decision to negotiate with Tormund and freeing Val to do it, decision to send an expedition to Hard Home, decision to face Ramsay are some examples. Dany has caused almost an entire city's population to die through her actions and inactions. First she kills all the free adult males of the Astapor, then she leaves the slaves there to their own devices and they quickly start ripping out each other's throats, she leaves Yunkai be in exchange for freeing the slaves and some tribute, she now has a horde of people she must take care and just can't and Yunkai immediately return to slavery, she takes Meereen but fails to punish the great masters properly, I would see her not harming the children as a good act but great masters will see it as weakness which would only serve to embolden them and this is exactly what happens, and when Astapor is attacked, in their direst time she says they are freed men, they must look after themselves and abandons them which results in most of it's inhabitants dying in either battle or due to starvation and disease. She doesn't just stop there though, she accepts(or was in the verge of accepting) a treaty in which she'll pay reperations and allow slavery in Astapor and Yunkai.

She caused an entire city's worth of people die and has so far achieved nothing for it, she only made things worse while Jon too has his shortcomings, so far he has rescued far more people than he caused to suffer or even worse, die. Jon does everything in his power to save people whereas Dany just gets bored and leaves them to their fate.

This

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

First off, as someone else said to an extent, Jon and Dany are both still children and aren’t ideal rulers. But to say Dany is a better leader than Jon is ridiculous by pretty much every single metric.

First off conquering does NOT equal ruling. Just because she can conquer three cities does not mean she can rule them. And yes she does meet out justice to slavers which is a good thing, but she has almost zero control over the cities she “conquered”. Her decisions have backfired repeatedly on her. Perhaps she’ll grow into a better leader, but as of right now her best quality is the fact that she represents freedom and justice to the people that follow her. She is a symbol.

 

Jon on the otherhand, has been decently successful up until his final chapter when he was betrayed. While he is dealing with a far more dire situation, we’ve yet to see any real consequences of his decisions as commander aside from making a stupid bigot betray him. While him fighting the Others will effect the realm as a whole eventually, he has far less power than Daenerys. And half the things you mentioned Jon did was before he was actually the leader. He has grown since his outburst at Thorne.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

On 12/22/2022 at 4:29 AM, EggBlue said:

Daenerys Targaryen is NOT a better leader than Jon Snow.

I'd say they're pretty much the same.

Jon doesn’t commit genocide claiming it is to free slaves, killing even the children, then leave the said slaves by themselves so they can castrate the entire remaining male population of a group and not defend them against retribution from other slavers and go ahead and sign a treaty saying she’s permitting slavery though. He doesn’t endorse torture(Wineseller and daughters) or let his pet eat children.

Everything Jon does is to save lives, life is sacred to him, unlike Dany he doesn’t want to play game of thrones and has no interest in power but when he is given power, even against his will, he does everything in his power to prevent loss of life. Dany on the other hand is all “hurr durr Imma blud of da dragun, Imma TargARYAN you lesser, Iron Chair belungs to meah you usurper dogz” Dany is an entitled mad woman, true spiritual heir of Aerys II only because her aunt Cersei is a bastard.

[Roswell]

On 12/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

Yes she is.  Daenerys is my candidate for the throne.  I hope she goes all the way to the top and rules for many decades to come.  It will take that long to clean up the problems created by the Baratheons and the Starks.  

[SeanF]

Jon, like Daenerys, is prepared to use torture.  He puts men in ice cells (and those men are undoubtedly arseholes), where they go insane.  He burns Gilly, a rape victim, in order to force her to surrender her child.  The Nights Watch as an institution inflicts torture on captives.  He takes children as hostages and threatens to kill them (and comments internally, that he would kill them if he had to),

In the case of Daenerys, such acts would brand her as Sauron.

Jon, like Dany, takes the decisions that leaders take, in this world.  Jon is trying to save people from the Others and the Boltons (combined with a desire for revenge on those who harmed his family).  Dany is trying to save people from enslavement (combined with a desire for revenge on those who harmed her family).

Morally speaking, I see little difference between the two of them.

Edited December 23, 2022 by SeanF

[SeanF]

Where Jon and Dany both fail is that neither is a fox.  They’re both of them lions.

Lions drive away predators, but foxes avoid snares.

Leaders need to be both.

And, neither of them is (as yet) sufficiently ruthless.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Roswell said:

Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

Yes she is.  Daenerys is my candidate for the throne.  I hope she goes all the way to the top and rules for many decades to come.  It will take that long to clean up the problems created by the Baratheons and the Starks.  

One whiff of the sweet smell of a blue flower growing from a chink in the wall and she’ll die. 

[astarkchoice]

Both are in over their heads 

Jon has been taught to rule  watching ned and applies some.great long term policies BUT he fails to apply good advice (mel on keeping an entourage  to stay safe ) and communicate his ideas over to those who oppose him. Hes been correctly taught that dissent must be struck down (slynt) but fails to make sure it doesnt get that far by listening to those who objected to ideas and trying to sway them or think of ways to mulify their anger.

The response to the pink letter was simply awful , without soild heads or dissenters  around him he acted on instinct badly.

 

Dany is fucking up far worse BUT in fairness shes ruling on a much bigger scale than jon in an area that is largely alien to her  so is learning to swim in a much bigger pool, shes got good advisors around and generaly listens to them but still makes horrible choices (daario) and is often lost for what shel do for the  long term

[kissdbyfire]

Oh wonderful, yet another TARGA™️ circle jerk. 
 

 

[Oana_Mika]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh wonderful, yet another TARGA™️ circle jerk. /cdn-cgi/mirage/4d1dd9372505e58a0bdb04209f544a89a4566c3ca985d6402b699b4d5cd954d1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif
 

 

Don't worry, you also have a Starka™ one.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Don't worry, you also have a Starka™ one.

Nah, the real world parallel doesn’t work at all, sorry. 

[Oana_Mika]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nah, the real world parallel doesn’t work at all, sorry. 

What real world parallel lol??? All I said is that you also have stark fans circle jerk posts too. Or am I wrong?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

What real world parallel lol??? All I said is that you also have stark fans circle jerk posts too. Or am I wrong?

Never mind the real world parallel… 

But yes, of course you have Stark fans and Greyjoy fans and Tully fans and so on. But the fans of these other houses are nothing like the group I was referring to. And FYI I was not talking about Targaryen fans in general, just a specific subset that will beat a dead horse for millennia trying to deny the text. 

[Oana_Mika]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Never mind the real world parallel… 

But yes, of course you have Stark fans and Greyjoy fans and Tully fans and so on. But the fans of these other houses are nothing like the group I was referring to. And FYI I was not talking about Targaryen fans in general, just a specific subset that will beat a dead horse for millennia trying to deny the text. 

I got it. I know what you mean by "specific subset that will beat a dead horse for millennia trying to deny the text. ". I've seen their comments and many of Dany/Targaryen haters sound the same.

[Craving Peaches]

I hope to put all these arguments to rest that we see Jon and Daenerys, who I actually think are quite similar, combine their leadership talents to wisely and effectively lead the fight against the Others.

[Corvo the Crow]

Jon is nothing like Dany destroyer of cities, committer of genocides, feeder of pedovore dragons, permitter of blood magic. Jon is the blue flower that grows from a chink in the wall of ice, he represents life whereas Dany is the very manifestation of death and suffering, only things she leaves in her wake. She’s a child murderer(slavers above 12 that are still children). People are  disgusted with Cersei, rightfully so, when she commits the abominable act of ordering a few of Robert’s bastards killed but when Dany orders thousands of children to be killed it’s ok.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[SeanF]

       I weep for the Astapor slavers —they are dead! 

       Oh, weep for Astapori slavers! though our tears 

       Thaw not the frost which binds so dear a head! 

       And thou, sad Hour, selected from all years 

       To mourn our loss, rouse thy obscure compeers, 

       And teach them thine own sorrow, say: "With me 

       Died the slavers; till the Future dares 

       Forget the Past, their fate and fame shall be 

      An echo and a light unto eternity!" 

 

[Oana_Mika]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon is nothing like Dany destroyer of cities, committer of genocides, feeder of pedovore dragons, permitter of blood magic. Jon is the blue flower that grows from a chink in the wall of ice, he represents life whereas Dany is the very manifestation of death and suffering, only things she leaves in her wake. She’s a child murderer(slavers above 12 that are still children). People are  disgusted with Cersei, rightfully so, when she commits the abominable act of ordering a few of Robert’s bastards killed but when Dany orders thousands of children to be killed it’s ok.

We got it, you champ the slaver's propaganda like is no tomorrow.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

I got it. I know what you mean by "specific subset that will beat a dead horse for millennia trying to deny the text. ". I've seen their comments and many of Dany/Targaryen haters sound the same.

They are the mirror image of each other.

If you’re championing human traffickers/the Sons of the Harpy/the Boltons/Tywin Lannister/Janos Slynt/The Freys, you’ve lost the argument already.

But, I doubt if such are arguments are made in good faith.